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Abandoned Realistic Cargo Mod Beta Version Update 2

@Hylie Pistof I did some digging and found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-rigged_caravel so the Caravel Redonda was also called the Caravela de Armada by the Portuguese. The Caravela Latina/ Redonda, Caravela Hermafrodita, and Caravela Redonda ships in game are of this type they can carry around 100 tons burthen convert that into cwt and its 2000 not much more than the original but a bit these ships were not designed to carry massive amounts of cargo which is why the carrack replaced them in fact quoted from Wikipedia

Being smaller and having a shallow keel, the caravel could sail upriver in shallow coastal waters. With the lateen sails attached, it was highly maneuverable and could sail much nearer the wind, while with the square Atlantic-type sails attached, it was very fast. Its economy, speed, agility, and power made it esteemed as the best sailing vessel of its time. The limited capacity for cargo and crew were their main drawbacks, but did not hinder its success. The exploration done with caravels made possible the spice trade of the Portuguese and the Spanish. However, for the trade itself, the caravel was later replaced by the larger nau (Carrack) which was more profitable for trading.
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Anywho I will change the amount of cargo in those ships listed. Thanks for testing out my mod and bringing it to my attention.

Also Hylie while I have you I did some work with the Cannons.Init file and found out that it is possible to change the weight of cannon and with some study of the AOP2 GOF cannon script I could figure out how they Implemented it into the game. The trouble comes however when I realized that you cannot put multiple types of cannon in a ship, the game doesn't allow it. The cannons in a ship will all be of one type which isn't the case realistically. The HMS Victory for example had 32 pounders on the lowest deck with 24 pounders on the middle deck and 12 pounders on the upper and quarter deck. Which means that the heavier warships would be penalized cargo space for having heavier caliber guns and to correct this a new ship cannon interface would need to be made of which I do not possess the adequate skill to create (This is my first mod i've made). So i'm probably going to leave cannon weight out of my mod an awesome idea though it may be.
 
Indeed the Spanish fleets starting with Columbus were a combination of Nao, Caravela, and small Caravel that was used for exploring rivers and other shallows.

The engine limitation of only one type of cannon has been known for years. The cannon weights can be averaged out or the full weight used, but any mod that leaves cannons out completely can not be considered accurate.
 
@Hylie Pistof I guess your right something is almost always better than nothing. I was never going for 100% spot on accuracy just a better cargo system than the base game used, I even joked about it when I started working on this mod. What I can do is make a separate version for people who want the cannon weight added, A middle road option as it were. It wouldn't be too hard to implement and I have the time. Is that acceptable Mr. Pistoff? lol
 
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100% accuracy is not possible. Like in Horseshoes or a hand grenade, close is good enough. :cheers

A balancing of cargo capacities has been needed for many years as it is different for different ships. First they were made fairly close in vanilla POTC, then some ships were given fantasy stats, then real life accuracy was attempted for some ships. So some ships are off by a bit, some are pretty accurate, and some would sink under the weight of all the cannons mounted on them.
 
I wonder if @J Norrington would be interested in investigating adding cannon weight "dynamically" based on the actual number of cannons and the type of them,
Having the values without the cannons factored in does make it easier to do that and I'm sure it can be done.
We just have to figure out how.
 
Sounds like a plan Peiter have to go out of town for work again this week but I'll be back on Monday and I'll start work on it. Have a good weekend everyone.
 
No worries. We can see about tracking down the relevant code when you return.
 
About that economy............The phrase "As poor as a church mouse." comes to mind. Of course starting with a CaravelR, a ship smaller than a dinghy, doesn't help. How poor? I have not done any treasure quests because I can not afford to buy a map!

I did manage to capture a larger ship, a Carrack, but even that is smaller than a Tartane or Lugger. With two ships I am now starting to make a little money and am starting to get some goodies like armor. Level12.
 
Thanks @Hylie Pistof let me know if it gets too difficult early on it should be easier to supply your ship since goods are cheaper. Trading becomes a bit more profitable once you get your hands on some bigger trade vessels like the light flyut for example. I could always alter the starting money a bit to make it easier on the new players.

@Grey Roger: know you mentioned your super battleship theory if you have the time sir I'd love to have you put my mod to the test. Raid,loot, pillage and ransack a town of your choosing in game take as many goods as you can fit in your hold, put all your money in the bank then sell your goods record your profit then install my mod and repeat using a new game and cheats let me know the difference between the numbers and I can tweak the goods price from there.

Alrighty gents time to get on the road have a great weekend everybody see ya Monday :keith
 
Hylie Pistof said:
About that economy............The phrase "As poor as a church mouse." comes to mind. Of course starting with a CaravelR, a ship smaller than a dinghy, doesn't help.
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A CaravelR is smaller than a Dinghy? How does that work? The model looks pretty big. :confused:

J Norrington said:
Sounds like a plan Peiter have to go out of town for work again this week but I'll be back on Monday and I'll start work on it. Have a good weekend everyone.
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I have prepared a new thread for that subject here:
http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/include-cannon-weight-and-number-in-cargo-capacity.24953/
It includes some references to related functions that hopefully can help you on your way to make this happen! :onya
 
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Pieter Boelen said:
A CaravelR is smaller than a Dinghy? How does that work? The model looks pretty big. :confused:
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It doesn't work at all. As near as I can tell so far, the smallest ship in the game is the Caravel, followed by the CaravelR and then the Carrack. They are basically rafts as far as cargo capacity is concerned compared to other ships.
Look at this screenie. Beta 3 2015-04-11 18-06-36-12.jpg

The Tartane in the foreground has 2200cwt cargo capacity. The Sloop has 3200, the Carrack has 2100, and that Fast War Galleon in the background has well over 10000 cwt. In my experience the largest ships in the current system like the Manila Galleon at 9400cwt can clean out the largest colonies and the smaller ones are too small to bother with.
So:
1. This mod is very unbalanced.
2. The capacities used are far beyond what the economy can handle.
 
@Hylie Pistof yes we've already established that my calculations were wrong as far as the caravels were concerned an easy mistake to make for a "first time" modder in my defense. May I suggest trying a different ship until I have sufficient time to fix the Caravels. As far as the mod being unbalanced, It's going to be it's still in beta the whole reason I released it as such was to fix the balance issues if the ships have too big a hold and can clear out an entire colony, I'll adjust the amount of goods in the stores, if theres too many goods in the stores adjust the prices it's econ 101. The cannon weight has yet to be added as well. There's still plenty of work to be done and I intend to see it through to the finish. My question to you is what would you do with the cargo weight? You said yourself it needs re balancing if you have a better system in mind than mine please share. I'm certainly open to other options than using historical weights from real ships if it works better as far game play is concerned. Ok going to bed I've been on a plane for 7 hours.
 
Yes this mod is in early beta and there are lots of changes coming. No problem there. It is my job to point out problem areas so things can get back in balance again.
 
And as always @Hylie Pistof it is appreciated sorry if I was a bit snippy my last post I had a 7 hour flight to Maine and was stuck with a kid behind me that would not stop whining and crying :nogood so I got jet lag and zero sleep.

kids_airplane.jpg


Was going to work on the mod tonight when I get back home but I think I might save it till Tuesday as the traveling has jacked up my sleep cycle and I'll probably just want to sleep this evening. One thing is for certain though I will sleep this flight I'm about 4 cocktails deep right now and we board in a hour :cheers so if you guys don't hear anything from me tonight I'll catch up with you tommorrow.

i_grow_impatient_with_these_snakes.jpg
 
Awake took a nice nap on the plane and when I got home fired up potc and did some more testing and one thing I do like about the new cargo space is that it makes playing Nelson's free play a little easier when playing Iron Man mode when you have lower tier warships (6-5). You spend more time running from American Frigates than you do anything else, but doing trade missions in the meantime helps out a ton since they allow you to get the money critical to upgrade your ship to avoid said 5-6 super frigates of death which seem to appear no matter what level you are (If I had a nickel for every time they ran me down and killed me even when I use mines and my rear chasers) take out pirates and board the occasional unescorted trade vessel.



As @Hylie Pistof said in the beginning with a tier 8-7-6 ships it can be a little bit harder to make some more dough since prices are cheaper but when you get bigger ships it gets better. So what I'm thinking is making things a bit easier for players by giving them some more starting cash as well as maybe adjusting the credit a bit for the loan shark starting off? around 5k? The reason I'm thinking this would be better than adjusting prices right off the bat is because if i raise the goods price too much the game becomes easier yes in the beginning but becomes way way way too easy later on. I would rather give the player more dough starting off and see if it weens the difficulty a bit before I adjust prices. So I think I'll try that tonight and see if that makes it a bit better. If It doesn't I will adjust the prices gradually until the best possible fit between low level and high level is reached but to be honest once you can raid ports the game gets ridiculously easy as far as money goes I remember watching a lets play on youtube and a guy raided a pirate port and walked away with 2 million (without raiding goods) it was awhile ago so I don't know if that's been addressed since (Build 14 Beta 1 Patch 6) I'm thinking most likely yes but if it hasn't it might be something I might want to take a look at as well.


As far as the cannons I've decided to add the historical cannon weight to the ships cargo (I will add the weight of each cannon taking caliber into effect meaning that two and three decked ships will not be punished cargo wise for having bigger canons as I am calculating the cannon weight as they were equipped in real life with multiple calibers) I will not add swivel gun weight as they don't fire in game and are only for decoration. Doing this will be made easier by the fact I already have historical data for every ship in the game. It will whomever take a bit longer to implement since I am beta testing as well as calculating.
 
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J Norrington said:
once you can raid ports the game gets ridiculously easy as far as money goes I remember watching a lets play on youtube and a guy raided a pirate port and walked away with 2 million (without raiding goods) it was awhile ago so I don't know if that's been addressed since (Build 14 Beta 1 Patch 6) I'm thinking most likely yes but if it hasn't it might be something I might want to take a look at as well.
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It is still possible to raid pirate ports, but you can't get the ability to do so until later in the game by which time it should be harder to do so.
So that particular easy cash shouldn't be quite that easy anymore.

J Norrington said:
As far as the cannons I've decided to add the historical cannon weight to the ships cargo (I will add the weight of each cannon taking caliber into effect meaning that two and three decked ships will not be punished cargo wise for having bigger canons as I am calculating the cannon weight as they were equipped in real life with multiple calibers) I will not add swivel gun weight as they don't fire in game and are only for decoration. Doing this will be made easier by the fact I already have historical data for every ship in the game. It will whomever take a bit longer to implement since I am beta testing as well as calculating.
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You want to hard-code the cannon weights back into the ships' cargo capacities? I'd like to recommend not doing that.
When you give the capacity for the "light ship" weights without any crew, cannons and cargo, that is much more flexible from a programming point of view.
Reason being that we can add the cannon weights dynamically and take into account the correct up-to-date number of calibre of the actual ones installed.
Last weekend I did some preliminary research on how to make that work; if you haven't seen it yet, please see here:
http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/include-cannon-weight-and-number-in-cargo-capacity.24953/

I was hoping we could experiment with that and see if we can get it working. There's a lot of potential there and laying the basics for it shouldn't be that difficult.
Of course there will be challenges along the way and probably things we hadn't thought of in advance, but we can deal with those as they come.
 
Being a newbie I am not in a position to help evaluate the modd (I'm not au fait with how many aspects of the current release interact to make a comparison over many scenarios). However in build 14 3.4 filling Sovereign of the Seas is already a less than interesting piece of the game play. It strikes me that given the 'real' time taken and the accompanying aching finger that buying large amounts of goods gives me in 3.4 (unless I am missing a quick key?) it is already at my tolerance level. If quantities are increasing so much perhaps the unit multiples or weight that goods are bought and sold in (ie therefore onboard weight) could also be adjusted during "balancing" rather than solely monetary value and availability to prevent spending all day at the shops.

Even better would be the ability to type in the level of purchase you want rather than only slider button control (unless a fast forward button, ie faster purchase, is possible) but appreciate that that is a completely different interface than this modd thread deals with.
 
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I did check that out @Pieter Boelen the problem with doing it dynamically is that again the bigger warships will use only the weight of the caliber installed so a ship such as the Victory (Sorry I keep using her as an example but she's the ship I've done the most research on) will have 104 32 pounder guns on her weighing 85 cwt each (carriage included) or 8500 pounds respectively. 85x104=8840, 42840-8840=34000 not horrible but not accurate either the real number is 36798 (44, 12 pounders 38cwt per unit 1672 total) + (28, 24 pounders 65cwt per unit 1820 total) + (30, 32 pounders 85cwt per unit 2550 total). The Victory is one of the largest ships in the game my fear is that scaling this down on some of the smaller ships might lead to problems the only way to find out is to test it. For now hardcoding the ships is the easier option as the totals will be closer to historical accuracy (the drawback being the numbers will be static) but I will also attempt to add it dynamically as well but it's probably gonna take awhile. It's kind of a rabbit hole though since if you add the weight of the cannons dynamically then you need to factor in weight for speed, and on and on you go lol.
 
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