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French Oxbay & pre-loaded cannons.

K

Kazeite

Privateer
Storm Modder
Well, those are two things I'd like to be changed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

French Oxbay: Consider this: as of right now, French capture Oxbay as soon as you board your ship, but, when you leave, it seems that they capture it again (during cutscene). Doesn't that strike you as... odd? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
I think that Oxbay should remain British when you leave it, and change hands only after you leave it, during cutscene, and then french blockade fleet may appear.

Pre-loaded cannons: As I mentioned before, in PotC, everybody always keep their cannons loaded at all times. Just in case, apparently. Again, doesn't it strike anyone as odd? I may not be the expert in this area, but it seems to me that cannons were loaded only when going into the battle. Certainly, such change would only help those players who find themselves in the middle of the 6 MoW line <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> Not to mention it would allow the player to change ammo type at the beginning without losing already existing load.
 
Yes and Yes i would say <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Still that pesky 'oxbay escape' video is doing lots of wierd things currently, so hopefuly it can be fixed and more strategicaly placed.
I suspect the reason to have Oxbay in french hands is more for a game scenario design, rather then one of logical placement(like you wouldn't notice Oxbay being over-run by french at some point before seting sail!?).

And it is kinda cool fleeing from the port with the fort and french ships fireing on you. Sadly they are too good a shot and this almost always results in your sinking in about 5 seconds, unless you have a neutral flag raised, which loses that excitement of the escape a little.
Still with the improved ship combat it could indeed be enough of a challange to just have the invaiding french ships as the enemy, leaving the fort english untill you actualy leave/escape?

I dont have a problem with the video playing after that event, its narrative hindsight, and is i think an ok method to set the scene on the coming story - i cant see where else you could really place it, without actualy having to change the dialogue in the movie(which i doubt we can do)?

As for cannons pre-loaded. I'm not an expert of the periods details, but i suspect you are right. For example wouldn't the balls just roll out the cannons and fall in the sea if left in situ? ok you stuff wadding into the barrel after the ball, but in rough seas; all the rolling and rocking to and fro - surely you would lose some? Anyway i suspect 'normaly' you wouldn't have your cannons pre-loaded.
 
<!--quoteo(post=169239:date=Oct 30 2006, 11:20 AM:name=Black Bart)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black Bart @ Oct 30 2006, 11:20 AM) [snapback]169239[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
.....
As for cannons pre-loaded. I'm not an expert of the periods details, but i suspect you are right. For example wouldn't the balls just roll out the cannons and fall in the sea if left in situ? ok you stuff wadding into the barrel after the ball, but in rough seas; all the rolling and rocking to and fro - surely you would lose some? Anyway i suspect 'normaly' you wouldn't have your cannons pre-loaded.
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Negative. The gun mouth was closed with a wooden piece, sort of a cork. In spanish is called "tapabocas"

AFAIK, the guns were pre-loaded, and fired and reloaded from time to time. Of course, in the Navy. I doubt that a merchant ship will have its few guns pre-loaded.
 
Thanks for the clarification kblack <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
 
Oxbay: Perhaps it might be more interesting if the fort was British when you left, but the French warships were approaching. Of course if the fort sunk all the French ships it might mess up the continuity of the game. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> It may be possible to make the fort unable to fire for that particular scenario, and make the French ships unboardable (the only way you're going to win against them in a small starting ship) or have very high hit points so you can't sink them in case you start the game with a monster warship.

Or better yet: go back to the way it was originally and don't start the French invasion until you go to the world map the first time.

Pre-loaded cannons: consider that doing a sail-to or engaging enemy from the worldmap puts you at 60-100 yards from the enemy ship unless you've messed with the stock numbers. You certainly know you're going into combat when you do these things, so you'd have your guns loaded.

If you sail to an enemy ship manually, it doesn't matter if your guns are pre-loaded or not. The only time I can think of this being useful is when you board your ship from the dock and encounter enemy ships in the harbor.

You can change your default loadout in BuildSettings.h. Look for DEFAULT_CHARGE. I've got my default set for chain, due to changes in my code (unpublished yet) that make chain a lot more useful.

Hook
 
<!--quoteo(post=169332:date=Oct 30 2006, 10:58 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Oct 30 2006, 10:58 PM) [snapback]169332[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Oxbay: Perhaps it might be more interesting if the fort was British when you left, but the French warships were approaching. Of course if the fort sunk all the French ships it might mess up the continuity of the game. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> It may be possible to make the fort unable to fire for that particular scenario, and make the French ships unboardable (the only way you're going to win against them in a small starting ship) or have very high hit points so you can't sink them in case you start the game with a monster warship.

Or better yet: go back to the way it was originally and don't start the French invasion until you go to the world map the first time.

...........

Hook
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I guess the origonal method is the easiest to impliment, and it works with no hiccups? Still i like the idea(gameplay wise) of having aggresive(to you, no matter what flag you raise - this is an invasion fleet, they dont want anybody to escape and spread the word!) french ships only(no fort involvement). So you literaly have no choice but to flee. Locking out boarding would be a nice touch - that would keep even veteran players in-line with the 'escape oxbay video'. How this would be triggered if you just stayed in the 3D sailing mode i'm not sure? use a 'range' marker - so when 3000 yards from the fort it plays?
After that i'm pretty much in favour of letting the player do whatever they want.

And ref cannons - i dont mind them being preloaded so much, as long as your cannon skills actualy come into play in the ensueing battle, i think it doesnt make too much difference to the gameplay?
I guess Kazeite was interested in the actual historical accuracy - and as kblack pointed out, warships in particular would sail with pre-loaded cannons. Thats good enough for me personaly <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />
 
<!--quoteo(post=169332:date=Oct 30 2006, 04:58 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Oct 30 2006, 04:58 PM) [snapback]169332[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or better yet: go back to the way it was originally and don't start the French invasion until you go to the world map the first time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm with that notion.

I don't know what the hell (sorry pirate KK but I'm going to rant on your ass here) pirate KK was thinking by totally rewriting and rearranging the ENTIRE begining of the game.

<u><i><b> IT WASNT BROKEN </b></i></u>

I was trying to follow all the code changes, and I saw so many places that could have caused so many issues. The entire beginning is awash now, many lines of code deleted that setup the entire game, relations, soldiers, oxbay... wtf?

Then I come across things rearranged and rewritten for NO change in effect ? WTF? Do not f**k with code that is working, to only try to have it work the exact same way after!

And rule #2, never screw with a root game function! Hundreds, if not thousands of actions throughout the game use those functions!

And running the end quest function TWICE?! Are you MAD?! heheh!!! That function uses toggles that flip flop for use. Running it twice completely negates the importance of what the function DOES. AGH. The bug you were trying to fix, locked doors in oxbay, is something else... might want to check with that complete hack n slash you did to the entire beginning of a new game! Like, all those missing lines of code?

Grrr *pant* *pant* ... sorry pirate KK, I had to rant there. I know your intent was for the good, but introducing an entirely new way the game begins, this close to trying to finish the build mod for a stable release? I'm not surprised by the upcropping of crazy bugs of things that USED to work fine.

1) Oxbay invasion movie - worked fine before
2) Oxbay got captured AFTER you left it - worked fine before
3) French became hostile to you after you go to redman - worked fine before
4) Talking to Silehard after invasion - worked fine before
5) Buildingset enhancements to oxbay gone after invasion - worked fine before

Now, we have to go reinvent the wheel again and try to track down each and every one of these to RE-FIX to work.

---

No preloaded cannons? f**ken give me a break. This is a bloody game... not a real life school based teaching aide simulator of the exact way the world was in the past. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />
 
Actually, I was mainly interested in the, well "catching them with their pants down" bit <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> That is, firing at completely surprised and unsuspecting enemy, who doesn't have the means of responding to by broadside mere seconds later. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> No to mention I feel kinda weird, sailing into friendly port with all cannons ready to fire.

And, um, didn't Royal Navy discourage wasting black powder (which meant that their gunner didn't had many live-fire excercises)?
 
<!--quoteo(post=169387:date=Oct 31 2006, 10:33 AM:name=Kazeite)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kazeite @ Oct 31 2006, 10:33 AM) [snapback]169387[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
...No to mention I feel kinda weird, sailing into friendly port with all cannons ready to fire.
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I guess not everyone is comfortable with carrying "Cocked & Locked".

Sounds like someone hit the "spacebar" by accident while sailing in port and having all hell break loose. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rofl" border="0" alt="24.gif" />
 
Or is that going in "Half Cocked" ?

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />



But then you could argue, that well, if they see YOU loading up your cannons for a 'broad side sneak attack', wouldn't they get suspicious and start loading up their cannons? Only to be fairly ready for when you lob off a volley?

*shrug* ...
 
<!--quoteo(post=169379:date=Oct 31 2006, 04:04 PM:name=IncredibleHat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Oct 31 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]169379[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
.......

No preloaded cannons? f**ken give me a break. This is a bloody game... not a real life school based teaching aide simulator of the exact way the world was in the past. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />
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Oh but it could be! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":keith" border="0" alt="keith.gif" /> ok i'm not 100% serious about this(well ok maybe 80% then!) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

And i agree that maybe in hindsight the game start should be back to how it was origonaly - just because it may be the cause of many other problems.
 
<!--quoteo(post=169424:date=Oct 31 2006, 07:53 PM:name=IncredibleHat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Oct 31 2006, 07:53 PM) [snapback]169424[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
But then you could argue, that well, if they see YOU loading up your cannons for a 'broad side sneak attack', wouldn't they get suspicious and start loading up their cannons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if they do see me loading up my cannons. That's what the gunport covers are for, you know <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wp" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />
 
To IncredibleHat about Pirate_KK's code changes: Maximus added the choose character screen many months ago. He then made it so that you could choose your starting nation and based on that you would start on a different island. He then made the tutorial work for those islands as well and that did work fine. However, it was not a thoroughly proper job, because weird things happened like on QC when you'd enter port, Malcolm would tell you to follow him to the stalls, but there are none. The only things Pirate_KK did was to make all this work more smooth by making the dialogs and quest cases make sense. So Pirate_KKdid the final finishing on this work.

The reason for running the quest movie twice is completely insane. Pirate_KK's code changes worked completely fine in his modpack version. But when I put his tutorial changes into Build 13 while keeping out his new features* the tutorial didn't work anymore. Pirate_KK tried fixing it, but the only thing that worked was doing that. He is not happy with having to solve it that way and if you could find a proper solution, that would be most welcome. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":doff" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

* Free walk aboard your ship and tutorial cabin based on ship type

<i>1) Oxbay invasion movie - worked fine before</i>
The movie plays when it should in Beta 6. However it also seems to play at random, messing things up. The playing at random *might* be caused by Pirate_KK running the quest movie twice, but I'm not sure.

<i>2) Oxbay got captured AFTER you left it - worked fine before</i>
There is no problem with this now, is there?

<i>3) French became hostile to you after you go to redman - worked fine before</i>
I have seen no trouble with this either last time I checked, which was a couple of weeks ago at most.

<i>4) Talking to Silehard after invasion - worked fine before</i>
Still seems to work fine.

<i>5) Buildingset enhancements to oxbay gone after invasion - worked fine before</i>
I have tested this myself and it still does work fine.

I think that some of the above issues only occurred in previous modpack updates. Just about everything, apart from the invasion movie, is working properly in the current game version for all I know.
 
Ok, cool.

I was just having a bad code day. I apologize for the rantings.

The movie could be caused by the new "StartAdventure" quest. It is called there, and a quest delay action is used after (instead of doing postvideoandquest). I don't honestly know WHY that is there, when it was already being called from the 'begining' quest action as well.

I just see it suspect, and might need looking at. PirateKK may know what he was trying to do with that, and see the answer right off. I cant seem to make heads or tails of the two starting quests that look like the conflict with each other.

The invasion movie should only play once when you hit the worldmap after leaving oxbay. ONCE. However if that wincondition is being reset multiple times, because 'begining' is being setup and used multiple times (which it looks like it is in all that new tutorial code), then it could very well be doing that movie many times.

AND, if that movie isn't played like I had set it up with the original quest actions, then anyone hitting 'spacebar' in the middle of the movie while on the worldmap, is going to be in for a world of hurt and breakage (black screens, and all sorts of evil). See, I had fixed that so the spacebar won't kill the game exiting that invasion movie, since the game would execute the spacebar as heading back into 3d sailing mode. However it does it too soon, and all hell breaks lose, and so on and so forth <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> LONG STORY on that one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />
 
The reason for the StartAdventure quest is this: Pirate_KK made a mod in which you can start the game while skipping the tutorial completely. Instead you can choose the port where you'll begin. However, with the tutorial quest not running at all that way, a lot of important quest-things aren't set up properly, so he added the StartAdventure quest case to take care of all that. The StartAdventure quest should only be run if you DON'T play the tutorial and the tutorial quests should only be run if you DO play the tutorial. However, I had to seperate Pirate_KK'd work putting the fixes and improvements in the Beta's while keeping out the new features. That is, of course, quite tricky business and might have introduced quite some bugs.

I think it would be good if some coder other than me would take a look at Pirate_KK's original files that can be found on the FTP in the Pirate_KK\future folder and compare the files with Beta 6. Would you be willing to do that, IncredibleHat? I think that should help quite a bit. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":wp" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />
 
Uhm, if I have time. I cannot play test anything, only look at code files, as I only have my Mac with me on this endless biz trip. I do all work on the Mac, and only used my gameing pc to run the game. But, thats about a 50 pound machine that is not easy to take on planes, trains and automobiles...

But, I might look at it.

It may be, that at this point, seeing as how things might be broken to a point where it will be very difficult to fix, that maybe it would be easier just to implement his entire pack ? I mean, isnt the ship walk fix just for wandering without having to go back to sailing mode between decks? I can't see that being a serious problem mod... because pirateKK said it was working fine.

However, I'll hold judgement until I can look over the original code he submitted compared to the current beta6 stuff.
 
Well, I did an initial look at beta6 vs kk's cumulative additions... and, well, there is just too much stuff to go through when I don't know the meaning behind 90% of it all.

I see things missing, which raise an eyebrow, and I see things put in, and then some things put in but slightly changed from what KK had in his files. So I don't know whats going on.

I do know, he did a hell of a LOT of work. Some of which looks like some pretty good stuff!

If the bug that exists because not all the stuff was added, isn't fixable by itself, then maybe you do have to add some of that other stuff in. Just would hate to do such a risky thing right now... but then, if no one can figure out the problem (without doing a very nasty thing like running a function twice in a row hehe), then maybe it's our only chance ?

Need feedback from pirateKK on this one.
 
I have done some testing with Pirate_KK's changes and it does work. I found several bugs that he fixed. There's just one bug left that isn't fixed that I know of. And that isn't a really serious bug. It's gamekilling if you encounter it, but I know exactly when it happens and it is very easy to make sure that doesn't happen.

When I get to making Beta 7, I could make an additional download including Pirate_KK's new code so that that can be tested as well. If it can be confirmed working (just about) right, then I think we should be able to safely put it in Beta 8.
 
<!--quoteo(post=169379:date=Oct 31 2006, 04:04 PM:name=IncredibleHat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Oct 31 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]169379[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I was trying to follow all the code changes, and I saw so many places that could have caused so many issues. The entire beginning is awash now, many lines of code deleted that setup the entire game, relations, soldiers, oxbay... wtf?
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A lot of code was changed, but these things ARE still handled. Be sure to check the bottom of PROGRAM\NATIONS\nations.c. There is a new function there <i>SetStartUpRelations()</i> that will set all starting relations. The changing of the soldiers when Oxbay is captured has also been taken over by a new function which works just fine as far as I know.
 
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