A dissertation about not losing sight of gameplay.

[IncredibleHat]

I'd like to enjoy the battles at sea. But I found more land based stuff was fun.

In the stock game, it seemed like whenever I helped out a fellow ship in a battle with a pirate, my morale went down, and my reputation took a hit. So I stopped bothering.

Then, when pirates would attack me at sea, I would also start to loose reputation. So I started to avoid getting chased down and intercepted at sea with pirates.

Then, storms just thrashed my ship to pieces and I would usually end up sinking. So I avoided storms at all costs.

I never engaged forts, because I never seemed to make a dent. So I gave up on that too.

This was all in the stock game mind you. It ended up, me not even really caring about the sailing part, other that to enjoy a few minutes just sailing into the harbor from a farther-out-start-point from the world map.

Now, with build mod 12.1... it added a whole hell of a lot of spice to sailing. It actually eliminated (for the most part) the drops in reputation and morale and the such for doing battles for good. So I started joining in more, and enjoying sinking and taking ships and selling them for major bucks n stuff.

However, I still enjoy the land based portion of the game more. Exploring, quests, doing things, slashing down bad guys, finding loot, making money etc.

I think its a bit silly to nit pick about a teeny thing in the sailing behavior, when it doesnt add to gameplay. Still being able to turn, even when damaged, adds to gameplay, because it allows you to still play the game! Not reload a save and start over...

 

[LarryHookins]

<!--quoteo(post=152905:date=Jun 29 2006, 02:15 AM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Jun 29 2006, 02:15 AM) [snapback]152905[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I'll monkey with the mods I have installed, and see if I can confirm the sailing model. I'm sure it's not arcade, but I'll double-check to make sure the latest mods are installed in the correct order.
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It's not in the mods. It's on the game options screen. The same menu that allows you to save or load a game has a button for options. Click on that and you have options to do things like change controls, and set sailing mode. If you have arcade sailing mode set, I can understand why you don't like the way it works.

You can verify quickly in the game, and probably from memory. If you can sail into the wind, even slowly, then you have arcade sailing mode set. Note that a square rigged ship will move backwards if facing into the wind and the sails are set, and a speed will be indicated but not that it's going backwards, so don't just go by the speedometer in the upper right.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
How was that for "how long should a battle last?"
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You've missed the point entirely. I don't want to know how long any real battle lasted, but how long a player can endure. Assume NO time compression, NO surrender, NO ships sinking, NO surrender for the time the battle will last. Can *you* play a single battle for 12 hours straight? Six hours? Two? Twenty minutes? If you know before you start an engagement that you'll have to spend the next X hours or minutes at the keyboard, at what point do you start avoiding engagements altogether?

Some battle situations lend themselves to time compression. Like a long chase. Most do not. If you have to use time compression during a heated engagment, the game is doing something wrong. Heck, if you CAN use time compression during a heated engagment and still be able to play, the game is doing something wrong.

So... how long? And if you give me another answer out of a history book, it shows you still don't understand the question.

Hook

 

[IncredibleHat]

For me... I vote 30 minutes TOPS for a pretty big battle. Maybe I would stick it out for an hour, if I happened to join in my 4 ships with two fighting fleets of 5 ships each (14 ships total in complete mayhem).

But for small battles... I don't want it to drag on more than 15 minutes tops.

Then again ... time flies when you are having fun! LOL!

 

[Meigger]

I would say 30 to max 45 minutes for a really large sea battle. Skirmishes no more 10 to max 20 minutes.

 

[ronlosey]

Well, if you assume no surrenders, no boardings, whatever ... and no time compression... Suddenly that's a completely different ballgame than what we have. Asking how long a battle lasts if nobody ends it - well, it lasts until somebody ends it.

How long should a battle last? Time a couple of your current ones, and check the actual time. They can go for 20 or 30 minutes pretty easily if the wind is not cooperating, and that's even with time compression. Some end instantly in a dramatic boarding, but I don't suggest that be changed. I'm not proposing a huge change in time. I just say that the damage model is off - crew should be more vulnerable, and hull should last longer, and sail damage should be more serious. It's not the duration, but the look of the results that I say is wrong.

The sailing detail I was picking at works like this. Turning a certain sloop, I figured I could turn a 180 from a dead stop in about 4 minutes. At battle sails in a high wind (25 knots), it still took more than 2 minutes and maybe as much as 3, depending on the exact wind direction. A rudder should do nothing from a dead stop. If they can turn the ship with canoe paddles in 4 minutes, and it takes 2-3 with the rigging and the rudder, why do we need sails? I mean, reality check - a ship that can't make any speed at all should certainly be forced to surrender due to lack of maneuvering capability. If you can turn from dead stop at half the speed of actually sailing, that means any approaching ship will be facing your guns, no matter how immobilized you may be. The chance of disabling and capturing a ship by cutting its masts is exactly zero - you can cut the masts, but they can still maneuver and so turn to fire.

As for your ship and being annoying, it's the same logic as "let's make it so our ship can NEVER sink, no matter what, because it's annoying to not win all the time." Being shot to bits means your war is over - and if you're sunk, disabled and left adrift, or left with not enough crew to sail, the effect is roughly the same. If you're still floating after a destructive loss, however, it's a little less annoying than your ship just sinking like a stone. (And if you win, it leaves more to capture too - but a working fire model would balance that, as some ships could also burn.)

Is that my point made better?

 

[IncredibleHat]

Personally I dislike the surrender model in the game completely. I have had more surrenders to me when I am in a lifeboat, than anything else! And thats just absurd! A galleon surrendering to a lifeboat of 4 guys ?!?!

LOL =)

I guess there is a setting for this, but I musta missed it.

I do think that turning with battle sails should be MUCH quicker than at full speed. I went sailing with a sailing teacher once, and he was able to turn his yacht extremely fast with a few sails, than when we were going faster. He even turned the boata 180 fairly quickly at dead stop with just a front sail... at least I thought we were stopped... not sure how any of that really works, I wasn't taking the class, I was just enjoying the ride.

 

[SuoiveD]

There are a lot of pros & cons, for & against, about whether a game should be more historical or not. There is 1 thing that is more important to remember & that is " Its a GAME we play for FUN to have FUN ".

Frankly the more anyone tries to make the game be more historical or change things simply cause the physics are wrong or change things to make it as if it was real as it was back 200 - 300yrs ago then the GAME loses the FUN.

Anyone can argue their point of view & that is their prerogative, but let's keep the GAME itself FUN.

 

[LarryHookins]

Well, at least SuoiveD gets it.

Ron, you've still missed the point, and not answered the question. Not how long MY battles last, but how long do you want YOURS to last.

You can get the effect you've asked for by firing nothing but grape.

Look in cannons_init.c for damage multipiers for different sized guns.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->rCannon.DamageMultiply = 0.60;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
for a 6 pounder long gun, for example. You can also find reload times there, which I have tweaked for the larger guns in my game (because they ended up doing less damage than smaller guns).

Look in initGoods.c for damage multipliers for different ammunition.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Goods[GOOD_BALLS].DamageHull  = 12.0;
Goods[GOOD_BALLS].DamageRig   = 2.0;
Goods[GOOD_BALLS].DamageCrew  = 0.75;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
and
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Goods[GOOD_GRAPES].DamageHull = 3.0;
Goods[GOOD_GRAPES].DamageRig  = 6.0; // was 9.0
Goods[GOOD_GRAPES].DamageCrew = 3.0;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
for example. The part that says "// was 9.0" is a comment. Everything after a "//" on a line is not read by the game.

Make sure you're looking in the part that says
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->if(USE_REAL_CANNONS)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
and not the part after the "else".

I'm sure we can make the enemy ships never sink by forcing a surrender when their hull points get to zero, then giving them a few hull points. If you fire on a surrendered ship, then it will sink normally.

I'm not talking about your own ship never sinking. I'm talking about a situation where you are stuck in the middle of the ocean and cannot continue the game no matter what you do. This is called a "showstopper" level bug and I think you can figure out why.

So tweak away to your heart's content.

And IncredibleHat... Sometimes ships just want to give up and don't care who takes over. This usually isn't the captain who wants to give up, but the crew, who basically mutiny and take over the ship. And thanks for the info on Real Life sailing. I knew how it worked, but had never experienced having to turn while stopped.

Hook

 

[IncredibleHat]

It is kind of funny though, a big warship surrendering to a lifeboat captain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> Surely their mutiny would go the other way around lol! It just seems ships surrender way too much. Doesn't anyone have any loyalties anymore? Hehe. I'd like to see a few checks that prevent ANY 'warship' or ship of the line NOT surrender. They should be set to "kill them, or die trying, there is no surrender!".

I agree totally on the FUN part. It was why I started this novel of a thread. I've turned off a couple small things because they were no fun to me, but it doesn't mean they should not exist in the Build Mod. they should just have the ability to be turned off by those who don't like them <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

The only damage I have seen that doesn't seem to do as much as I like, is the sail damage from chains. So I upped that damage setting myself. Grapes n Balls do fine enough damage it seems from what I have done. Sure, it would be nice to clear the entire crew of a ship with two volleys of grape ... but whats the fun in that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

 

[Swindler]

<!--quoteo(post=153127:date=Jun 30 2006, 08:41 PM:name=IncredibleHat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IncredibleHat @ Jun 30 2006, 08:41 PM) [snapback]153127[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
It is kind of funny though, a big warship surrendering to a lifeboat captain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> Surely their mutiny would go the other way around lol! It just seems ships surrender way too much. Doesn't anyone have any loyalties anymore? Hehe. I'd like to see a few checks that prevent ANY 'warship' or ship of the line NOT surrender. They should be set to "kill them, or die trying, there is no surrender!".
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Set SURRENDER_MULT in BuildSettings.h to 0.0 and it should be fighting to the bitter end <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

 

[IncredibleHat]

Yup, I did overlook that setting. Cool thanks! I like to fight for my meat thank you very much!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

 

[ronlosey]

Well, I'm going to be out of town for the next week or so, I think. After I get back, I'll play with those gun numbers a bit and see what I can learn. I think the game can be balanced to produce results that are historically believeable and still balanced for play, but it may take time.

Turning the boat with the front sail is certainly not "stopped" - it tightens the turn radius considerably, but it still requires a significant degree of movement. The ability to use certain sails more than others to make turn radius tighter - that is covered in the skill "sailing", and it sounds like that guy knew his boat pretty well.

The tactical issue is simple. You should be able to put a craft into a very bad position by damaging the sails. That was the logic of chain shot. Unless those sails are operating pretty efficiently, things like turning are nearly impossible. This creates the combat tactic of trying to disable them, so you can circle around to a less-armed corner of the boat and pound them into surrender (or eventually sink them or wipe out the entire crew if they keep trying to fight). It's a risky tactic, because they will likely be firing right at your face while you're shooting for their sails. However, if it works, it's very one-sided.

The surrender mod is certainly a little funny. Part of the problem is the hull damage ratio. Morale drops based on hull damage. I keep saying hulls take damage too quickly, relative to crew and rigging. This creates the effect where a mostly intact crew will surrender to a lifeboat. If hull disappeared slower than crew, like historical, then the crews that surrender would look like a tattered rabble who had just been shot to bits - and you could imagine the last handful of them surrendering to anybody who might have medical supplies. History was balanced, but we're still a little off.

I keep saying it's just as much trouble to balance these things historically or from fantasy, and one is just as playable as the other. When new ideas come out (like the surrender mod, for example), they change game balance. Both that mod and other elements have to be re-balanced around the changes. Without the time and thinking required to rebalance them, the new elements seem out of place, and the gut instinct is to turn them off entirely. I think the surrender mod is a brilliant idea, and well-programmed, but it needs a weapon damage tweak to get the desired effect.

As I said, as soon as I can, I'll play with the numbers and tell everybody what I learned. (I can't do the modifications to fire that I suggested, but just changing the damage numbers seems easy enough.)

 

[LarryHookins]

<!--quoteo(post=153168:date=Jun 30 2006, 08:32 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Jun 30 2006, 08:32 PM) [snapback]153168[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Turning the boat with the front sail is certainly not "stopped" - it tightens the turn radius considerably, but it still requires a significant degree of movement. The ability to use certain sails more than others to make turn radius tighter - that is covered in the skill "sailing", and it sounds like that guy knew his boat pretty well.
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IncredibleHat thought the boat WAS stopped, and it probably was.

I'm surprised that you don't seem to know that on a larger sailing ship the rudder has fairly little effect. In fact, a ship can still sail and maneuver with the rudder shot totally away, although not well, and coming about through the wind (tacking) would probably be impossible. A ship that is totally stopped can still be turned by use of sails alone, without any forward or backward motion whatsoever.

Search the forums for the HMS Surprise simulator and play with it a bit to see what I mean.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tactical issue is simple. You should be able to put a craft into a very bad position by damaging the sails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I agree. And the craft IS in a very bad position unless you're sailing something that is too slow and can't maneuver. Once you get in closer, it's fairly easy to keep out of the firing arcs of the guns. If you're far enough away that he can turn faster than you can sail, expect to take a few broadsides.

One of my favorite scenarios is the USS Constitution against the Santissima Trinidad. Trust me, I know the tactic you're talking about. I've played that scenario in many games.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The surrender mod is certainly a little funny. Part of the problem is the hull damage ratio. Morale drops based on hull damage. I keep saying hulls take damage too quickly, relative to crew and rigging. This creates the effect where a mostly intact crew will surrender to a lifeboat. If hull disappeared slower than crew, like historical, then the crews that surrender would look like a tattered rabble who had just been shot to bits - and you could imagine the last handful of them surrendering to anybody who might have medical supplies. History was balanced, but we're still a little off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't have any evidence that crews took that many casualties. I haven't read about it in a while, but I don't remember many ships losing enough crew that they weren't effective. And ships don't surrender because their crews are too low, they surrender because their morale is too low. They don't want to get shot to pieces. And yes, a man of war WILL surrender to a lifeboat. The crew doesn't care who it is, as long as people stop shooting at them.

Keep in mind that "hull damage points" is a major abstraction. When it gets to zero, it doesn't mean that your hull falls apart. I've been playing sailing combat games since the early 70's and having hull damage points is the general convention for handling damage to the hull of the ship. Almost all games had some version of it.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I keep saying it's just as much trouble to balance these things historically or from fantasy, and one is just as playable as the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Keep in mind that no matter how you tweak the numbers, a battle MUST last less than an hour. Since you never answered that question, I doubt you understand why it has to be that way. This one hour limit has nothing whatsoever to do with realism or history. It's necessary because this is a game. That's not history. It's fantasy. And it can't be helped.

You'll have to tweak the numbers so that a battle will *always* be fought to conclusion in under an hour. If you make the hull damage too low, someone with the surrender mod turned off won't be able to play. At all. And as for ships sinking, I think almost every one of us wants ships to sink. Not because they sank historically, but because this is a game, and we expect to be rewarded for our effort.

Hook