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AI Sailing into the wind

Those files are still there to dl and try for yourself. :drunk

IMO the experimental version puts too heavy of a penalty on low skills. A skill level of 10-10 down the line is extremely rare. Most officers are far less competent and this defeats the purpose of this mod. Essentially, the only ships that they can sail are the lateen equipped ships like the xebecs, jackass bark, certain caravels, the fragata latina, and some small cutters and sloops and such that are faster into the wind than with it. Most officers are hopeless in square sail ships like the Black Pearl. I got frustrated with it and tossed it. Maybe you will like it.

I hope irrational comes back soon. There are questions left unanswered, such as he said he found where the function that causes ships to spin in storms is located. :shock
 
Pieter Boelen said:
Number of ships in the upcoming Patch 6: over 240.
Click to expand...
That could be a bit deceiving... :shock
What you really meant was the total number of ships including those from the upcoming Patch 6 is just over 240.
Still, that itself marks quite an achievement, doesn't it? :woot

Hylie Pistoff said:
I hope irrational comes back soon. There are questions left unanswered, such as he said he found where the function that causes ships to spin in storms is located. :shock
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Aye, that code must be sorted ASAP! Random uncontrollable spinning has GOT to be the most annoying feature of storms in the game!
I feel sorry for my 'virtual' crew... they probably feel 'virtually' seasick half the time...:eww
 
it's hilarious when it happens to enemies though. makes for some tricky shot-dodging however. never know where he's gonna shoot next.
 
True, it does look pretty funny when the joke's on them! xD:
Still, it would be better not to have spinning of this kind at all, of course.
 
Hylie Pistoff said:
Those files are still there to dl and try for yourself. :drunk
Click to expand...

Once i'm done with these dialogue fixes i think i'll have a look(might need to ask for help in where to get the files, where to put them etc, so stand by! :) ).

Hylie Pistoff said:
IMO the experimental version puts too heavy of a penalty on low skills. A skill level of 10-10 down the line is extremely rare. Most officers are far less competent and this defeats the purpose of this mod. Essentially, the only ships that they can sail are the lateen equipped ships like the xebecs, jackass bark, certain caravels, the fragata latina, and some small cutters and sloops and such that are faster into the wind than with it. Most officers are hopeless in square sail ships like the Black Pearl. I got frustrated with it and tossed it. Maybe you will like it.
Click to expand...

Maybe it can be 'tweaked'? This again comes down to the ship testing thing i mentioned, it would be great to have a full list of which ships don't work well with <3 Sailing skill Navigator, into the wind. If it is as simple as saying all square-riggers fall into this category, then maybe the code can be adapted. In terms of AI code, make it so ALL Navigators that get assigned a square-rigger(whatever the ships that have an issue) get a Sailing skill bonus to be a minimum of >3 upto whatever? something like that? That will ensure the AI fleets don't become too hamstrung.

For the player i like the idea of if you have an actual fleet of bigger class ships/square-riggers etc, you should need experienced Navigators to run them. There IS quite a difference from running a small 'sloop' style boat to a big Tall Ship. Or maybe that could become a function to switch on/off in the 'advanced functions' etc. What it does in effect is raise the bar of entry to achieving the higher goals in the game world, which in turn makes the goals more valuable to the player. The way i see it, the more 'role play/realism' aspects to the Build Mod, the better. And this is still early days, the code in terms of what it achieves now IS better than what the AI ships would do before, all it needs is adapting to fit in the best way it can and use it's better features to enhance the game.

But if the simple version of the mod works best overall, with least work needed to have it in game sooner, then that is probably the version to aim for in the meantime. I guess it uses less resources, so that is also a plus thing.
 
It has been a while since I used the experimental version, so thing are vague. But, it was putting a double whammy on the inexperienced Captains, and they were pretty much unable to sail at all. I'm talking about class 7 and class 6 ships here. Luggers and barks.
The game is already progressive. When you first start out at level 7 your Lugger is slow and slow turning because your skills are very low. Take that same ship out when you are at level 5 and it is a fast responsive ship. Take it out when you are at level 3 and you will think you are in a modern motorboat! Adding that extra layer of progression just causes the beginner Captains to flounder until you are rich enough to upgrade them with a good compass, chronometer, sextant, and microscope.

Hmmm. I just looked at the officers in the game I'm currently playing. One is a natural 1 with equipment that brings him up to 5. Maybe I'll reinstall that experimental AI and see how he does. All of my ships are now class 5.

About the ships, well it is not about the ships but the officers. When a low grade officer tries to tack it takes him so long that the ship sails backwards and he ends up sailing backwards off the map. this puts a premium on the ships with lateen sails that are not so affected by the wind direction. That means that many good small historical ships will not be used, distorting the game. For example, there is some doubt that the Xebec was ever used in the Carribean, and it would become very popular. Fixing it's unrealistic performance was what FlayedOne was doing before he disappeared. :cry

Anyway, try the different versions when you get a chance. I will start today. :drunk
 
Are these files on the 'Ftp'? i didn't get the chance to download before the forum problems, and the downloads don't yet work here.
 
Pieter Boelen said:
The simple version is included in Armada's ship pack work.
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Ah cool, i wasn't sure where to be looking, maye irational had a different folder name etc. Have you been using the simple version? This sounds like the 'safest' one for inclusion for now doesn't it? I think that was Hylie Pistoff's assessment?

erm...actualy what is the name of the folder on the 'ftp' that Armada's ship pack is in? Is it 'SHIP PACKS' , and if so what bits do i need?(ENS_Lite_prelim, Easter 2011? etc)
 
I think you need to install all three those files in chronological order.
 
Pieter Boelen said:
I think you need to install all three those files in chronological order.
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:facepalm

I think i might be on holiday before i get all that downloaded and installed! maybe the download links are working on the forum now!? :sail

Gah! no - i saw the smilies come back and..just hoped...well never mind, i'll test it out when i get back. Have fun pirate chaps and see you in about 2 weeks and a bit :sail:
 
Well, it's too late now, but what you need is patch 5, the Christmas ship pack, and Easter 2011. In that order. :cheers
 
The download links are working again :D So i just got all three files. I take it they simply replace a file called AIship.c?(so put the original file somewhere safe and use one of these files instead).

Heh! i might have few hours gaming between packing :sail:
 
Hey everyone, sorry for not visiting been very busy. Ill just go through the posts then reply.

The simple version is the way to go imho, it is reliable, simple and in my testing gets ships sailing upwind to their destinations just as fast as the other versions.

The experimental version was an idea based on using my experimental code (which included 3 or 4 different methods) to have ships sail 'better' upwind as they get more skill in sailing. At 0-2 sailing skill i made them basically flounder or struggle uselessly, which was intentional and could easily be changed. The trouble is, while i think its a good idea, of those 3 or 4 methods only really the simple method was 'good enough' in my opinion. The faster methods sometimes got AI there faster, but other times no, and caused more collisions.

The advanced method was the most complex, newest and latest effort from the experimental version that tried to improve on the simple method. See above for results - sometimes quicker, much more complex, more collisions and generally not worth it.


If people like the idea of AI sailing upwind better or worse depending on some kind of skill (like sailing skill) but prefer only the simple method, there are multiple ways in which I could make a version where ships get better as skill increases - i could achieve this by manipulating the force with which i turn ships and when and how much they set and put down sails while crossing the wind.

The trouble, in my opinion, with such an approach is it generally relies on making AI WORSE than they currently do with the simple version, because i just havent been able to make them significantly BETTER. Since i dont think the simple version performs as well as a human right now, penalizing the AI further might introduce INTER-AI balance - ie better AI captains outsail worse AI captains - but lower AI-PLAYER balance - because the player outperforms all AI captains when tacking already, and would even more the low skilled ones.


There are definitely ways it could be improved, but they get more complex. One thing id particularly like to be able to do is read WHICH SIDE of the wind the ship is on. I couldnt figure out the format of the foffwind variable - it just didnt seem to give me the information i needed about which side of the wind im on. To REALLY get ships performing brilliantly upwind would require that they start solving the problem of where they want to go, where the thing they are chasing is likely to go, and how to maneuver through the wind for best advantage. That basically means an AI vastly more powerful than the one in the game at present, and i have no idea where to even begin modding such an AI.


Hope that answers some questions, oh yes and ill try a few things with those storms, see if i can stop the spinning. But what should be the desired result? What effect does wind in a storm have on a ship though? Does it blow the ship to face 0 or 180 off the wind?

One other thing - which 'simple' version was included in the code? Id like to make sure its the one which forces ships to put DOWN sails when facing the wind, but also to put UP the sails afterward.
 
Hey irR4tiOn4L! Good to see you again! :woot

I'm not 100% sure which version of the simple code we included; if you upload the one you want included, I'll make sure that's the one that goes into the next modpack release.

As far as skill-based differences go, there's certainly something to be said for it, but as you point out, that involves making the AI worse again.
Though you could argue that "worse, but at least better than stock game" would still be better. Then they'd get more better as their skill increases.
On the other hand, the sailing skill already does influence their performance elsewhere, so for gameplay purposes, I think it doesn't have to influence the tacking as well.

You might be able to extract which side of the wind the ship is on by using rCharacter.Ship.Ang.y (=ship's course) and Whr_GetWindAngle() (=wind angle).
But you don't have to make your code insanely complex, I reckon. The improvement we've got is already great. :bow
 
Pieter Boelen said:
Hey irR4tiOn4L! Good to see you again! :woot

I'm not 100% sure which version of the simple code we included; if you upload the one you want included, I'll make sure that's the one that goes into the next modpack release.

As far as skill-based differences go, there's certainly something to be said for it, but as you point out, that involves making the AI worse again.
Though you could argue that "worse, but at least better than stock game" would still be better. Then they'd get more better as their skill increases.
On the other hand, the sailing skill already does influence their performance elsewhere, so for gameplay purposes, I think it doesn't have to influence the tacking as well.

You might be able to extract which side of the wind the ship is on by using rCharacter.Ship.Ang.y (=ship's course) and Whr_GetWindAngle() (=wind angle).
But you don't have to make your code insanely complex, I reckon. The improvement we've got is already great. :bow
Click to expand...


Thanks for those commands, when i get a moment ill go over the code and try and make it port/starboard aware.

It wont make it much more complex at all, in fact it may simplify it. Itll give me more scope to control when ships cross the wind and how long before they can try again.

Ill check the updated files and see if the latest version was included, then if i make progress ill post a new version here.
 
Yeah so far even the simple version of this fix makes a decent difference to the AI ships ability on the battle-field(battle sea?), although if they start close together they do occasionally bump into one another as they adjust to the wind etc. But on numerous occasions now, i've been harried over distance by a much more capable 'sailing' AI with this improvement, so it is pretty much a keeper already for me :sail:
 
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