<!--quoteo(post=271069:date=Jul 29 2008, 11:46 AM:name=Commodore John Paul Jones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Commodore John Paul Jones @ Jul 29 2008, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=271069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteBegin-Cpt. James+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cpt. James)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I protest. The French design better ships in terms of speed and gunnery. And this is quite blatantly a lopsided argument based on your own patriotism. It is made up of generalisations and self-promotion "Some of the best sailors, navigators , and leaders around', indeed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The French did have better designs in those regards when compared to the British, but the truth is, that Joshua Humphreys designed the best sailing frigates in the world. The <i>Constitution</i> is proof of this, and the reason the Royal Navy was able to capture the other frigates was because English ships outnumbered American ones 166-1! This is not my own patriotism founding this argument, but factual history. The War of 1812 isn't some legend about the US Navy... it is our history. Our six frigates and some hundred other vessels sure gave England one tough time... and though neither side won from a political or tactical standpoint... the war proved to America that it could hold its own and snuffed out any hopes England had of retaking what had once been their own. Might I also note that the majority of this game, other sailing games, books, movies, etc are heavily influenced by the Royal Navy... so I think that if you will make generalisations and self-promote the might of Nelson's Navy... than the USA, Holland, Spain, Portugal, France, and any other nation with a maritime power has that right. I even recall this: that at the Trafalgar 200 reenactment, the fleets were red and blue and not English and Franco-Spanish. But Anna Tribe (great-great-great granddaughter of Lord Nelson and Lady Hamilton) said this - "I am sure the French and Spaniards are adult enough to appreciate we did win the battle." When will England allow other nations to take pride in their own 17th, 18th, 19th century maritime history without bowing to England as ruler of the seas?
In this Build Mod, England has the most ships and its tradition... will you not allow us to include the United States and allow us to sculpt our advantages and disadvantages with historical accuracy? Though we had no ships over 44 guns until 1814, we did have better frigates, better officers and crews on average, more accurate crews, and higher crew morale. England had more ships, more officer depth (meaning that the chances of finding a brilliant officer were high) and could reload faster. England's crews, though inexpierenced because of impressment, were drilled enough by strict officers to make them deadly enough in battle.
You may be disgusted and I know chances of you doing this are slim, but consider reading "SIX FRIGATES" by Ian W. Toll... everything you need to know about American frigates is there.
<!--QuoteBegin- Pieter Boelen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( Pieter Boelen)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It seems the addition of the USA is making loose quite some strong sentiments. Patriotism on the one hand and dislike on the other hand. I think we'll eventually need to get down in the middle to get to something realistic. The Commodore's ideas are certainly worth considering, but we don't want to go overboard with the patriotistic things either. In any case, it seems we've got our work cut out for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though I take pride in it... it was not patriotism that lead me to suggest what I did. Those are the facts. And if one doesn't want to share with the United States, then I'd suggest that they play the game prior to 1776... because history cannot be changed and we can not omit the United States simply because the majority of the Age of Sail community is made up of Royal Navy buffs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Merciless Mark+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Merciless Mark)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If i am not mistaken while the Americans "ONCE" their navy formed had frigates that were better armed and more durable, the British still had the best crews. Which of course makes perfect sense when you consider that Brittain is an island nation.
And unlike the other empires, the Americans did not have regular access to ship-of-the-lines either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly! I am not trying to out the Royal Navy... and if the Royal Navy threw all of its weight into the fight they could have wiped the USN off the map... but the RN was spread thin protecting the British Empire all over the world...
Though the Royal Navy had more men in service, the quality of American crews were better. Not a single sailor was pressed into American service! Royal Navy sailors even deserted to the United States Navy for petter pay, liberties, and treatment. This was one of the factors that caused the War of 1812 (which is ironic, because the issue was resolved between the two nations when the war started).
The United States Navy did not have ships-of-the-line until 1814... even then we built only a few and hardly used them. Most never saw service beyond serving as a flagship in the Med for a couple of years and all were scrapped or burned by the start of the American Civil War. But, in regular fashion, the American ships-of-the-line were (on average) larger than other nations' capital ships... though I personally believe that that led to these ships being harder to handle... because there is a limit before a ship is so large it just can't sail well.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sparky+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sparky)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->wasn't the US busy getting rid of the natives and trying to colonise more land also American ships were english since they wernt independent. the only ships or trade ships were British. They didn't really get there own military until later in time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The United States was busy deporting Native Americans to the West... but that really wasn't in full swing until later in the 1830-1870 period. And American warships during the Revolution were American built for the most part. The few vessels we had were smaller craft such as schooners and sloops that were already built locally. The larger frigates (only 30 gun frigates, mind you... the 44s wern't seen until 1798) were constructed by order of Congress... but only a couple actually made it into Continental Navy service; the rest were burned on the slips, captured, or never laid down. There were also a few ships, such as the <i>Bonhomme Richard</i>, that were bought from the French as ex-merchantmen and converted to warships. The Americans even built a 74 gun third rate, the <i>America</i>, but she was built too late in the war and was given to the French as a thank you gift upon launch. The British later captured the <i>America</i> from the French and commented on her fine construction. By the time the United States Navy was founded in 1794, all vessels were American-built.
All in all, I do not understand why such strong opposition was just voiced against the addition of the USA and the PA! Community's attempts to recreate the USA in the Build Mod with accurate detail. I do apologize in advance if this post seemed to be a long rant, if it seemed arrogant and overly patriotic, but I had do defend this... if not for my own country then for the sake of historical accuracy.
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Damn XD, the man sure can write <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="
" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />, I'm totally imparcial about this. So let me start for saying including USA to the game is a great idea! Now to the subject of ship building. Without a doubt the french designs were commonly better designs, but alas as prize of war most of these ships we used as payment of indemnizations of war with England and this was the way the british put their hands on most of the french fleet. So in terms of the english fleet, a big part of it was in fact of french design, later on the USA started their fleet which was based not on firepower but on speed. That's why they focused on fast frigates and therefore most of their victories over the British were based on speed. Their naval philosophy we were usingwas like on land, hit and run like hell (guess what, it actually worked and lobsters got their arses kicked or should we say their hmm sterns...).
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" border="0" alt="sad.gif" /> , whats is the problem, and i have read how to install it but it dont work enyway ..
" border="0" alt="keith.gif" /> bye, bye,