Defining a Common Goal

[Pieter Boelen]

Hello all,

Since there has been a lot of comments on what should and shouldn't be included into PotC, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss this matter here to attempt to define a common goal, so we can use that goal to decide what should and shouldn't be in the modpack.

First of all, I think it might be a nice idea to think of a new name for our modded game. In Build 11 the game was called Sea Dogs II, but that was reset back to Pirates of the Caribbean for Build 12. Personally I like Pirates of the Caribbean very much, but it might be nice to add a subtitle to the name's game for our modded version. After all: We changed so much that it's hardly the same game anymore. For fun, I once thought of "Pirates of the Caribbean: Walt Disney's Chest". Obviously this isn't a very brilliant name for our mod, so please come up with some better names. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

More important is to decide what we actually want <i>in</i> our game. Do we want to go Napoleonic? Do we want to go all fantasy? As far as I am concerned, I would like to set our mod in a fictional time frame where all the good things of the Age of Sail are combined, so we will have pirates, but also beautiful English navy uniforms and also the Dutch West-India Trading Company. Personally I would like the following:
- England: Nelson-type ships added to the navy and better uniforms for the guards. The current English flag on the flag, but I don't care whether it's a white, red or blue ensign.
- France: Better uniforms for the soldiers, but no Napoleonic French flag.
- Netherlands: Dutch West India Trading Company, so more specifically Dutch trading vessels (with the green sterns) and not many war ships (only as escort). Either the current flag or the 6-striped version. Having the WIC logo on the flags would also be nice. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
- Spain/Portugal: I don't care much about those. It's fine as is. Not sure if the Spanish soldiers should be replaced with JMV's skins or not... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />
- NO US navy! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/no.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="no.gif" />

I most certainly don't want to take the fantasy element out of the game. I really like skeletons and cursed Maltese Knights and I welcome more of such changes. As long as the fatansy element is not made overly obvious. At the moment, most of the game is real with the occasional fantasy element thrown in for fun. Not sure if we should or shouldn't add sea monsters, though... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />

As far as realism vs. arcade goes: I'm all for realism if it makes the game more interesting. But adding non-realistic features that also make the game more interesting is, as far as I'm concerned, also a good idea. For example: I know blades don't usually break in the real world due to extensive use, but this is still a feature I want to add to the game (and not just because I am the one modding it in <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" /> ), because this adds a whole lot of strategic decisions to the game. Of course we shouldn't make things too micromanagial, but I do want the player to have to do some managing, which I would like to call macromanaging. I have explained about this before, so I won't do it here again right now.

Also: I don't very much like the idea of making the land fights so releastic that you can die pretty quickly and that a lot of people get wounded. I especially am against the addition of blood and other sorts of gore. I know fighting was realistic and not fun, but this is a game, as realistic as it becomes, I want it to remain fun. And I don't find any fun in World War II shooters, so I don't want the same realism here either.
I would think it to be nice to add characters who make more use of guns and less of blades. This would be nice for musketeers and characters like that. It would also be nice to tell your crewmembers what their primary weapon should be. I don't know if this can be coded though.

Also: We have a brothel mod in the game, but I'm not sure if mods like these are appropriate for younger players that might also be playing this game. Especially now that Maximus is making it more realistic by adding new character models (NOT naked ones! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="piratesing.gif" /> ) and a new room model. I already added a BuildSettings toggle on it, but now I am thinking we maybe should make it a completely additional download.

Something we should always keep in mind is the limitations our mods have. There are two major limitations: Engine limitations and things that are hardcoded. Engine limitations consist of things the engine simply can't do. Hardcoded things are things coded in files that we can't modify. An example is the sound used when your blade is drawn. I once tried changing it, but I can't because the code I can't access the code. I don't know exactly what things are influenced by these limitations, but I believe at least animations and the swordfighting system are hardcoded for the largest part, so we can't just replace the current swordfighting with a new version, because we can't access the code.

If there are things that some people would like in the game, but other people not, there are three options:
1) To hell with the people who (don't) want it
2) Add a toggle on it
3) Make it an additional download

Personally I never want to go for option #1, so that leaves #2 and #3. Making it an additional download has the difficulty that it should be made compatible with newer modpack versions that are made, which isn't fun to do. I had an idea that might be useful: Add a folder "mods" to the PROGRAM folder and add a file with "MOD_ENABLED 0" to the folder. Then add all the required code for the mod to the regular modpack, but not the required RESOURCE files. Then the additional download will add the RESOURCE files and will overwrite the file in "mods" with a file that says "MOD_ENABLED 1". I think that might solve a whole lot of troubles in making mods compatible with the latest modpack version.

Anyway: These are a whole lot of my personal thoughts on the matter. Please post your views as well. And feel free to completely disagree. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

Note: I don't think the engine allows for sea monsters. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/razz.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="razz.gif" />

 

[Merciless Mark]

I think we should stick to the true feel of the 17th century caribbean, the atmosphere of it and that era.

I like the current french uniforms, the default english skins should have their hats replaced with a proper tricone thou(they did have that in the 1600's)

If were going to have a union jack/ensign i think it should be the original one from 1707.

Of course then there is another idea, why not have a new game option of setting the timeline? like in sid meiers pirates, if one wants to play in 1690 or 1750 or 1812 or something like that. ships and uniforms would show up according to the timeline chosen to start the game in.

 

[ronlosey]

If you want a sea monster, you would have to create a model for him. However, the game has sharks as big as a 747 already - what kind of a monster did you have in mind?

Ron

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=144464:date=Apr 3 2006, 05:03 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Apr 3 2006, 05:03 PM) [snapback]144464[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
If you want a sea monster, you would have to create a model for him. However, the game has sharks as big as a 747 already - what kind of a monster did you have in mind?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NONE! It was just a joke! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />

 

[Merciless Mark]

<!--quoteo(post=144464:date=Apr 3 2006, 05:03 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Apr 3 2006, 05:03 PM) [snapback]144464[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
If you want a sea monster, you would have to create a model for him. However, the game has sharks as big as a 747 already - what kind of a monster did you have in mind?

Ron
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A .....larg exaggeration

 

[Thomas the Terror]

i would like to see the 6 striped flag, and some more guns and SPECIAL blades (dont know how many times i have posted it in other topics, it looks allmost like spam <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> ) and more dutch ships, NO US NAVY, to hell to the ones who want it. And some more abilities in combat, like grenadier and musketeer to carrie that weapons, maybe we could use the bomb picture instead of the concurrent grenade picture for it. And to steal ships in ports like redmond and isla muelle.

 

[Toddydude]

lol adding the us navy to it would be like completely changing the game and the title. we would have to call it realism and completely off the timeline pirates of the caribbean.

 

[kblack]

Humm, it seems there are two timeframes:

- War of Spanish/Austrian Sucession - round 1700
It's nearer to the actual timeframe (1690)
Still there was pirates, but also we have a reason for privateering and battles between Navies.
No USA

- Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars - 1793-1815 (maybe a little more if we add the Spanish colonies wars of independence)
No pirates
Lots of privateers
Netherlands still active
Portugal maybe not
USA must be represented
Lots of Navy operations
Lots of ideas for quests... just read some Patrick O'Brian's books

But, if we study deeper these choices, we will see that they aren't so differents as they seem at first glance
- Sailing model is equal
- Damage model equal
- Melee model equal
-.....

In fact, the differences are in:
- Ships skins and characteristics
- Flags
- USA, Portugal, Netherlands
- Uniforms and costumes


Just my 0.02 €

 

[Dom1172]

I think we should rename the game Pirates & Privateers:The Age of Sail.

We should set the game in the in the 100 year span of time between 1700 and 1800. I think we should work on improving the RPG realism, not necessarily the realism of the content. More realistic damage models for ships, new building like a military dockyard etc etc would be good additions. But we should still have a certain fantasy element, cursed pirates etc.
We should work towards expanding the role of nations ie. including Dutch West Indies Co. etc.
Nations should have specific fleets, skinned to represent the colours of the approximate time with some variation of the stats to reflect different ship building techniques, sailing qualities etc, so you don't meet the same manowar for the French, Dutch and English. Also if you manage to keep your character alive for 30 or 40 game years, fashions will have changed, this can't be represented so just pick uniform skins etc. which give a flavour of the time period not an accurate 1701 pattern British marine uniform, for example.
There should be new missions to reflect the kind of role you decide to play your character in - if you become a privateer, your govenor for example sends you on a cruise between Oxbay, Fleur de Falais and Redmond instructing you to sink, burn or capture any enemy shipping.
If you're working for DWICo. the partners instruct you to run goods on certain trade routes. There could be loads, there's a wealth of literature out there to inspire our imaginations!

 

[ronlosey]

The one thing we don't need right now is inspired imagination. That's one thing we have a lot of. What we need is concrete solutions.

1. Can we do something with the ship damage/fire/gun models to make them better reflect reality? Reflecting reality would put more thought into playing the game.

2. Ditto for the land battles. Can we get people to react like people? The "crew on shore" mod proves that a lot can be done here, but now the crew needs to fight like real crewmen.

3. Economy rebalance to reflect the high cost of buying and operating ships, and the value of a ship load of cargo, relative to other expenses. This would rebalance the kind and number of ships a player would have, and can be paired with a similar idea to rebalance what the AI seems to sail around.


And things we don't need:

1. If it's not broke, don't fix it. I mean, some of the uniforms aren't exactly the right time period, but you can tell who they are, so they're good enough.

2. We have a bucket load of disjointed ideas now. More unrelated notions will not help. We need things that rebalance the game, not things that just make it more strange.

3. The LAST thing we need is ideas that ADD WORK to that list. Please, nobody make this any harder than it already is.

--------------------
And that's my 2 cents worth.
Ron

 

[Bill Bones]

Houm...


This kind of games haves soem cocneptual shortcomings. Ships in the 16000 weren't fun, but using them was fun (from a gamer's standpoint). Whereas ships of the Napoleonic wars were fun, but their use was appallingly boring.

So, wether we have cool ships with lots of fcrew and 32-pounders, or we have the freedom to roam the seas in little ships with small guns.

And of course, we would never see manowars in the Caribbean. Colonial fleets were a frigate-based enterprise, as 74-gun lineships where conceived to make the line, not sail alone. Anything larger than a frigate doesn't belongs to the Caribbean, and even less to the age of pirates.

This said, what I would like to see:


- Pick between different color schemes for the ships: You buy a ship and never know what color it will be. Would be fine to pick a hull color the same as can be picked the sails.

- Realism adjustements. Sailing is currently great, but damage models are a bit unbalanced. Crew is too easy to kill, and ships can take few punishment from the bigger ships. I mean it's fun to sink a frigate with a single broadside from a manowar, but thigns weren't like that. Ships larger than a brig rarely where balled to death. There in Trafalgar, some ships got about 2,000 hits and didn't sunk. Crew losses above 50% where rare, only found in ships which exploded. So, we should make much more difficult to kill the crew, much more "depressing" the losses (say, morale sinks to "threacherous" if losses are above 25%), and the ships harder to destroy (so a frigate could take, say, 10 pointblank broadsides from a manowar, but also the crew wasn't too willing to buy it...). I think that should be easy, at least in Sea Dogs would had been easy -just tinkering with the right numbers.

- Also, isn't it a bit silly that the main character, a supposed "captain", actually haves no clue on sailing at the start? Wouldn't be beter to start up with, say, 3 points of sailing?

- Additionally, although I guess this may be harder, is there soem valor that can be trimmed so that AI refuses to sail against the wind? Also, could be some way so there always was a favorable wind to leave port, as no captain would be as stupid as to set sail with a wind against him... yet that's the case all too often in POTC?



(Addendum. I suggest this name for the build: "Caribbean, Sea of Pirates")

 

[Dom1172]

I would say that without imagination, what we would have today is a bug free version of the stock POTC game, not the vastly expanded game that the mod pack is.

Having said that though, I recognise that the addition of new technical elements would not be a good idea and that we should be focusing our resources on refining the elements that we already have in the game.
However, not everybody's strengths lie in these areas. People who are good modellers or skinners might not have the first clue about how to make a damage model perform in a more realistic way, but their contribution, by way of new ships, buildings or character skins is still valuable and has helped to make the game what it is today.

 

[kblack]

First, let me state that I agree mostly with you

<!--quoteo(post=144550:date=Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM:name=Bill Bones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Bones @ Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]144550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
......
And of course, we would never see manowars in the Caribbean. Colonial fleets were a frigate-based enterprise, as 74-gun lineships where conceived to make the line, not sail alone. Anything larger than a frigate doesn't belongs to the Caribbean, and even less to the age of pirates.
........
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AFAIK, during Nap wars several 74 and 64 ships were sent to Caribbean... and, of course, Spanish ones were operating there (in fact, Santisima Trinida - 140 guns - was build in La habana)


<!--quoteo(post=144550:date=Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM:name=Bill Bones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Bones @ Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]144550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
.......
There in Trafalgar, some ships got about 2,000 hits and didn't sunk. Crew losses above 50% where rare, only found in ships which exploded.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Agree, but they were ships-of-the-line, much more resistant than a frigate... and, even not sunk, they were a total loss, completely unrecoverable


<!--quoteo(post=144550:date=Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM:name=Bill Bones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Bones @ Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]144550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
....(so a frigate could take, say, 10 pointblank broadsides from a manowar, but also the crew wasn't too willing to buy it...).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well, Macedonian suffered several broadsides from United States's 24 pounders... and ended rather crippled... and the American frigate "only" beared round 16 guns and 10 carronades per side... while a 74 beared 30 guns per side (not counting carronades) and almost all 24 and 32 pounder.... the amount of iron a Victory, Sovereign of the Seas, Bucentaure, Orient, Santisima Trinidad or Santa Ana could deliver I'm afraid should be enough to sink a frigate in one broadside at point blank

<!--quoteo(post=144550:date=Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM:name=Bill Bones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Bones @ Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]144550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
.....
- Additionally, although I guess this may be harder, is there soem valor that can be trimmed so that AI refuses to sail against the wind? Also, could be some way so there always was a favorable wind to leave port, as no captain would be as stupid as to set sail with a wind against him... yet that's the case all too often in POTC?

<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Already in my wishlist.... from time to time I check the code to get clues about how to improve the AI.

 

[Merciless Mark]

<!--quoteo(post=144550:date=Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM:name=Bill Bones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Bones @ Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]144550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Crew losses above 50% where rare, only found in ships which exploded. So, we should make much more difficult to kill the crew, <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I dont agree, cannon balls alone did massive damage, aside from mauling anything in its path it would have unleashed a deadly hail of splinters. and lets not even talk about grape shots.

Keep the crew losses where they are, it makes it more fun and challanging trying to outmaneuver the enemy with the realization of what damage can be caused

 

[Toddydude]

or we could start a new game and let it ask us what time period we want. This would be great. Alot of work i suspect.

 

[Bill Bones]

<!--quoteo(post=144574:date=Apr 4 2006, 06:52 PM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Apr 4 2006, 06:52 PM) [snapback]144574[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
<!--quoteo(post=144550:date=Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM:name=Bill Bones)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bill Bones @ Apr 4 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]144550[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Crew losses above 50% where rare, only found in ships which exploded. So, we should make much more difficult to kill the crew, <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I dont agree, cannon balls alone did massive damage, aside from mauling anything in its path it would have unleashed a deadly hail of splinters. and lets not even talk about grape shots.

Keep the crew losses where they are, it makes it more fun and challanging trying to outmaneuver the enemy with the realization of what damage can be caused
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well, I'm refering to historical sources, namely the casualty list for Trafalgar. It is not real that out of 300 crew on a frigate, 280 get to be killed as in POTC...

Casualties in Trafalgar:

Spain: 1,022 dead (8.62%) and 1,383 wounded (11.67%) out of 11,847 men.
Britain: 449 dead 82.64%) and 1,243 wounded (7,31%) out of 17,000 men.
France: 3,386 dead (24.21%) and 1,162 wounded (8.31%) out of 13,985 men.


Some casualites in the Spanish fleet:


Santisima Trinidad, 140 guns, 205 dead & 108 wounded out of 1,048 aboard.

San Agustin, 74 guns, 180 dead & 200 wounded out of 711 aboard.

San Juan Nepomuceno, 74 guns, 100 dead & 150 wounded out of 693 aboard. Was shelled for 3 hours by 5 British ships ranging from 84 to 120 guns. Esteemed to take some 2,000 hits.

Argonauta, 80 guns, 60 dead & 148 wounded out of 798 aboard.


Huh, but then Trafalgar was too pussy a battle? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="whistling.gif" />

 

[CouchcaptainCharles]

Folks, I don't think there is much point in discussing historic details here, cause I don't think that strict adherence to historic correctness makes a game fun. E.g. forming up for battle and closing with the enemy usally took hours before the first shot was fired, chases could stretch over days, 99 percent of a sailors life consisted of boring routinework, bad food and stinking accomodation. Wouldn't want to relive that sort of "realism" in my game.
So we will always pick the entertaining aspects of history only, and the discussion should be about what happens on our computers and not about what happened in history.


<!--quoteo(post=144546:date=Apr 4 2006, 02:48 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Apr 4 2006, 02:48 PM) [snapback]144546[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The one thing we don't need right now is inspired imagination. That's one thing we have a lot of. What we need is concrete solutions.
And that's my 2 cents worth.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That are at least two Guineas of wisdom <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />:

 

[Galliente]

Well I have to agree with Bones here. One of the reasons wood was a good material is because it, upon impact, did not 'explode' or 'splinter', it just made a hole (well if it was a quality wood which it usually was) and imagine how hard it is to hit more than 1 person with a ~20 cm iron ball. The fact is, th balls didn't explode. To be honest, I don't think 'Bombs' shoud be in the game either. Or at least they should be made a lot stonger and have like 25% chance of exploding inside cannon (losing the cannon and like 5 crew)- what else woudl a hollow ball of black powder do?, so it would make people think twice about their usage (like frigates vs MoWs, one bomb broadside would cause hell of a damage, but would cripple both ships). That could be used as an effective strategy with faster ships - run, fire, evade, board. No more the dull 'Argh where is ye broadside!' on a crawling SotL dogfight.

 

[Merciless Mark]

Well I have to agree with Bones here. One of the reasons wood was a good material is because it, upon impact, did not 'explode' or 'splinter', it just made a hole[/qoute]

Dude, you really need to get your facts straight, a cannon ball plunging trough a wooden hull creates a neat entry hole but causes massive splinter shower on exit, its all a matter of physics. theres even a vid somewhere on the net with a recreation of a ship hull section being shot at with real solid shot.

<a href="http://www.kipar.org/piratical-resources/british-firepower.html" target="_blank">http://www.kipar.org/piratical-resources/b...-firepower.html</a>

A direct hit on the gun deck created a shower of deadly flying splinters, scattering the terrified crew. Many would be killed instantly

<a href="http://rumskulls.org/cannon.html" target="_blank">http://rumskulls.org/cannon.html</a>

Injuries were rather indiscriminate. Since yea know we are going to try and dismast each other, and we;ve been hanging that netting, you know probably understand why most injuries and deaths came from falling rigging and flying splinters. Then again, if a gun was loose on the deck or a hit from the enemy landed on the gundeck, you were as likely to be crushed by the flying gun, now rolling loose on deck, as to be injured from the shot itself. Our Surgeon talks of this in more detail in her writings.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4117124.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4117124.stm</a>

Armaments: 74 guns on two decks, including 8, 24 and 36-pounder cannon, including 4x36-pounder 'carronades'. Nicknamed "smashers", these close range guns fired heavy cannonballs, inflicting maximum damage to enemy ships and creating showers of deadly splinters.

Now Mr Galliente is that good enough for you or do you want me to give you more sources?

 

[Galliente]

The closes the sources get to just how many crew was actually killed by it is 'many', which is a highly subjective term and it doesn't even say they actually died from splinters. Many people didn't die from pistol bullets, splinters? And as for not having splinters on the entry hole, I apologise but I wasnt clear what I ment to say. I was reffering to damage over an area larger than the entry hole, not the hole itself. But that doesnt really matter. I still agree splinters killed more crew than the cannonballs, but that's basically logical. Again, a miscommunication on my part.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue I just stated that I think crew damage is over-rated. I think that ideally there should be a concept of 'injury' involved - the shot would remove as much crew as it does now, but most of it would eventually recover (having a Surgeon on board, perks and skills connected to medicine, .... etc).