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Finding Facts on Ship Types, DO NOT TRUST GAMES!

Captain_Python

Captain_Python

Rogue Scholar
Here is some advice to anyone doing research on the time period of the Pirate Golden Age,

DO NOT TRUST ANY PIRACY GAMES

There are few exceptions to that rule, except like Pirates of the Burning Sea, which actually researches it, and even lists the rescourses were they find them.

Games from Akella, Bethsoft, and Disney are specially wary(Their games of Sea Dogs, Pirates of the Caribbean, and their up coming games), and games like Tropico 2, Battlefield Pirates, and Port Royale and Tortuga Games. I am not saying that the game aren't fun, just that they aren't the most historically accurate games. Generally, people making Pirate games are cashing in off the romantic and steriotypical part of it, and adding some true historical part to make people think the game is historically accurate.

A good example is Sea Dogs. Sea Dogs is set in 1600, and they have Sloops, Billanders, and Frigates. These ships are all more common half a century, or a full century later.

The Internet overall is a hard place to find historically accurate things. So when doing research, remember you are in for a long and hard search.
 
So very true, Captain Python! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
You bring up an excellent point, as usual, Capt. Python! When I want historically accurate information, I typically hit the books. Real ones, with pages and everything. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" /> Yes, and words, too. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> It also helps that me brother is a retired U.S. Navy captain, and a graduate of their Surface Warfare School. In learning about modern tactics, he had to first learn about how those tactics evolved from the Age of Sail forward. Fascinating stuff, and I can get him to go on about it for hours. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />
 
I've been a fan of pirate computer games since i first played sids origonal 'Pirates'. And yes i agree totaly - i had a shock in PotC when i was looking to use that old 'Pirates' strategy of using fast manouvrable sloops. In PotC sloops are horrible boats(if you go on their stats).
Still it must be difficult to get that kind of technical info for old wooden sailing ships - anyone have any good suggestions of where to look(like book titles/websites?).
I've often wondered how the big boat vs the small boat actually went down in history.
like if in a big square rigger(which had much more sail per square foot) would be slower or faster than the smaller lighter ship, and how would it perform sailing into the wind etc. So just in case in the future(past) i wanted to be a pirate - what ship would really be best for that activity? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pirate2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p:" border="0" alt="pirate2.gif" />
 
I collect literature on all aspects of life at sea in the `17-18th` centuries, and I can tell you exactly why these companies don't use it in their games: because it's hard to read and unless the person has a real passion for discovering this stuff like I & some of you do, they won't make it past one page of 17th century syntax & grammar before zoning out and giving up.
So, they abbreviate things by "Researching" Treasure Island, other movies, etc, and calling it good. And the public certainly doesn't care that ship's wheels were not used until into the 18th century...remember, we're talking about a mass public who upon seeing ANY tall ship immediately say "Ooh look Billy, a <i>pirate ship</i>! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />
 
Whaddya talking about Python!? Everything I learned in life I learned from my Atari! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blah:" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the public certainly doesn't care that ship's wheels were not used until into the 18th century<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Does anyone here remember watching the original TV `Mini-series` of Shogun? It is set in the `1600-ish` and the Dutch vessel that "Pilot" .. err ... pilots of course had no ships wheel. First time I saw that, I thought "Heeeeey, where's the damn wheel!?" ...Boy was I dumb...

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":facepalm" border="0" alt="mybad.gif" />
 
child of Thor,
I depends on what kind of pirate you are. Are you a pirate that prefers speedy ships, or spacy ships. The majority of Pirates liked, speedy, small, and shallow drafted ships like the Sloop, Schooner, Cutter, and Ketch. These ships were excellent in being able to quickly catch slow merchant ships. But bigger ships, like transformed merchant ships, had more guns, crew, and could intimidate any merchant, and maybe compete with bigger escort ships. What Pirates did to merchant ships was they take out bulkheads, even out the poop and quarter decks, and take out the forecastle. Evening out the poop and quarterdeck created a bigger fighting platform. Taking out the forecastle made the main deck longer and bigger.

If you look at any of my articles in the Blind Parrot, that you can find many websites link to ship info. But a warning, when looking over the websites, it might not be accurate. A place you might want to look is at Pirates of the Burning Sea, and their ship article are very well researched and even have a list of recourses.

YankeePyrate and William,
The thing about wheels not being added untill the 18th Century is not commonly included in any websites. The only movie I have seen that there was no wheel, and it took place during the 17th Century, is on the Movie Captain Blood. The one ship that Blood stole, I don't think I saw a wheel, but I saw that navigator heading below decks when orders were made to take a new course. I should investigate that.
 
I remember that Shogun miniseries. Clavell wrote a very interesting book - and I found later that he based his idea on an actual historical character. I read a book on HIM and found it to be a great story - history is sometimes pretty dull by comparison to fiction, but in this case, the true story turned out to be BETTER...

I can't recall the name or the author of the book I've just mentioned - just came across it the other day when packing to move, so it's probably still in a box... SOMEWHERE... I'll post it here if I find it...
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-Captain_Python`+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Captain_Python)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->child of Thor,
I depends on what kind of pirate you are.  Are you a pirate that prefers speedy ships, or spacy ships.  The majority of Pirates liked, speedy, small, and shallow drafted ships like the Sloop, Schooner, Cutter, and Ketch. [/quote]

well from a personal viewpoint, i like smaller ships better - easier to hide under treelines along rivers/sea + you can actualy take them out the water alot easier+transport over land(they used to do that with the viking longship).

But i just would imagine that a big pirate hunter/battleship would most likely have the speed advantage on a smaller ship and once it had caught up its bigger guns/crew would finish the smaller pirate ship? Henry Morgan seemed to spend alot of his time in bigger ships, maybe just because he'd been given them by the british crown+ was more often a working agianst the other military powers in the caribbean? I'll go have a look at the sites you mentioned - thanks(and i got alot of back reading to do here <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> )

And @william, yes the TV series of Shogun was nicely done(well apart from the ships wheel <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" /> ). Does anyone remeber the 'median line' from around the same time? It was kinda about chinese pirates and the western powers in the far east?(i often confuse it with monkey magic!) - it had lots of old ship battles in it.

@YankeePyrate, thats an interesting thing you got going - is it a hobby or a job? and i agree, just trying to read and understand Chaucer(shakespere isnt too bad in comparison!) does take some serious will power - Olde english is a curious language.
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And @william, yes the TV series of Shogun was nicely done(well apart from the ships wheel  ). Does anyone remeber the 'median line' from around the same time? It was kinda about chinese pirates and the western powers in the far east?(i often confuse it with monkey magic!) - it had lots of old ship battles in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Welcome aboard Thor. Did Pilots original vessel in the beginning have a ships wheel? I could've sworn it didn't but since I now own the DVD set I might have to go back and look. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> The Japanese vessels of the time had a big handle for the rudder. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blah:" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" />

@Cat:
Hey Cat, who was the original character Clavell based the book off of? I would like to dive into reading about that.
 
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well from a personal viewpoint, i like smaller ships better - easier to hide under treelines along rivers/sea + you can actualy take them out the water alot easier+transport over land(they used to do that with the viking longship).  

But i just would imagine that a big pirate hunter/battleship would most likely have the speed advantage on a smaller ship and once it had caught up its bigger guns/crew would finish the smaller pirate ship?  <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Take the ship over land? To me, that sounds like a work of fiction. A Sloop is nothing like a Viking Longship. A Longship was designed to be toated from river to river. But a Sloop? Sure it would be easier to shore the Sloop to scrape the bottom of the ship, but why transport it on land? It would be faster to sail around a island than go across it. The ship was the fasted form of `non-animal` transportation before the railroad. It would take more men then on the ship probably, and what would you use to make move (wheels)?
Also, the bigger ships aren't nessesarily faster, but would probable be able to sink or completely criple a smaller ship's rigging and crew.
I have been studying this time period for a year now, and I have totally changed my view on it, as should the view of that time period.
 
Yes - it was a work of fiction, in that it might just be something i'd do as a pirate to throw of any pirate hunters. If it was ever done in the caribbean of the 'pirate' time period, i've never heard about it.

@William, not sure about the wheel on the ship in shogun - it was a while ago when i last saw it, but let me know if you do see one. I've been meaning to pick up the DVD's for a while now, i have such a good impression of the series - it was really well done.
 
I agree, it does sound rather unlikely that Pirate ships such as sloops would have been transported `over-land` in the Caribbean for any reason. Not only would you have had to transport what ever cargo she was carrying separately, but also her cannons and probably her rigging as well.

Most Viking Longboats however, where specifically designed to be able to do just that. Although there is still a LOT of conjecture on how that was actually accomplished. Most longboats were capable of carrying horses as well, for raids further inland. Not only could Vikings raid any town along the coast or on a river, they could raid ANY town or city that was ripe for the plundering. In my opinion, that's what made them the most successful pirates in history. I saw a TV show a couple of years ago, I believe it was on the Discovery channel. that documented a reenactment of how Vikings may have moved their ships `over-land`. They used logs to roll the boat a few hundred yards from one river to another. I forget now exactly how long it actually took them, but it was herculean effort.

I ran across this web page a while back : <a href="http://www.vittfarne.com/" target="_blank">http://www.vittfarne.com/</a>

They are trying to recreate a Viking expedition from around 1040 A.D. Here is an excerpt from one of their updates on the english language page about moving the boat across land.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To put in the boat at shallow shores and without of reach from seas, for example when making `night-camp` at a coast where there is no harbour is important. This can either be done by dragging the boat over the sand, or more gentle by carrying her with (straps) attached under the keel, which we have tried twice.

The first time, at the launching 2001, when 10 men carried the boat for about 4 km. The fact that the boat had no equipment, nor had she been soaked by water, made this heroic (project) possible, though it was bloody hard work.

The second time was this summer when we tried to get her on land carrying her with stripes. We were 8 men and dragged half the boat on the shore before we had to unload her from package and chests. Then we managed to carry the boat approximately 75 metres to get her in the shadow next to the `night-camp`.
The day after we decided to carry the boat to the other side of the island and put her at sea again.
This time we had to carry her about 100 m. So we took away the mast and emptied the boat completely to make her less heavy.
This time it was a smooth job.

With help of the drivers in the following car and maybe some locals, it will probably be real easy to carry the boat for short distances.
It is written in the Ingvars saga that they sometimes carried the boats over land.

During very short `land-draw` over a convenient surface, it will probably be possible to draw the boat without any protection for the keel. This has been done on several occasions.
During the winter an iron slipper will be attached on the keel to avoid damage.
A wooden replaceable `loose-keel` is also a possible solution, but earlier experiences of damaged `loose-keels` in rivers, and the fact that it makes the boat more deep going suggests in favour for the use of an iron slipper. During `long-distance` `land-draws` we are thinking about a bump absorbing - and hardwearing runner with the same length as the keel. It could easily be made on location by a suitable tree that we provide with a groove for the keel and a hole for a towing rope.
During the `long-distance` draw at the water splitter in Caucasus we will probably have access to oxes to drag the boat, and the crew balancing it. We will also try using the crew instead of oxes.

We will leave the training waters in the Stockholm archipelago by September in favour of the streaming waters of Dalälven.
There we will practice more land drags and training `downstream-passages` before our journey on the river Kura.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
 
<b>William, </b> the "Pilot" (John Blackthorn, or Anjin, in Clavell's Shogun book) in question - the historical man - was William Adams. This book is not the book I referred to, tho it is a more recent history text on his story:

<a href="http://www.fsgbooks.com/fsg/samuraiwilliam.htm" target="_blank">Samurai William</a> (haha, good title, hm?)

This is a fact page on Adams: <a href="http://www.`fact-index`.com/w/wi/william_adams.html" target="_blank">http://www.`fact-index`.com/w/wi/william_adams.html</a>

This is the book I have:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/080481094X/qid%3D1089662596/sr%`3D11-1`/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/`104-8282357`-8011912" target="_blank">The Needle Watcher by Richard Blaker</a>

Have fun! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheeky" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />
 
Nice info Thagarr and Catalina <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/onya.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":onya" border="0" alt="onya.gif" /> fun reading material for sure!

Argh! i've been wondering which of the computer games that have been done in the pirates theme has done it the best? I used to really like Cutthroats(by eidos), but somehow it didn't quite have that magical thing that Pirates(by Microprose) had going for it?
At present the actuall sailing/sea enviroments of PotC are blowing me away - they look and sound sooo good. So i'm not sure? Any other ones worth scraping the barnicles off? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="icon_wink.gif" />
 
<!--`QuoteBegin-child` of Thor+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(child of Thor)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any other ones worth scraping the barnicles off?  ;)[/quote]Heh, depends on what you like! I tend towards more `puzzle-type` rather than `FPS-type` games - RTS is my thing - STRATEGY rather than Oops, there's an enemy blast'em before they blast me!

That said, I liked Tropico2 - which I wrote a review for - William should be getting that up sometime soon, I hope.

PotC is very nice for many reasons - one is that it reminds me a bit of Redguard, not a "true" pirate game, but an interesting game nonetheless...

I've also played and enjoyed a game called Corsairs, several years old by now and played on an overhead style map where you sail from place to place and discover things, capture towns, &tc.

Probably my favorite is a VERY old game called "Uncharted Waters, New Horizons" which was made for Nintendo and the PC a LONG time ago... Koei are the developers and they've made quite a few versions since then but none in English. It is more of a trading game than piracy, but there are several "lines" you can follow and go off on your own to make your fortune either by plunder or trade or discovering new items or mapping out the world's oceans... VERY `multi-level`, for such a simple game with such simple graphics.
 
<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/keith.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":keith" border="0" alt="keith.gif" /> Not to rudely crash my bowsprit in anyone's stern but could I get some recommendations on books and literature? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bounce.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":b:" border="0" alt="bounce.gif" />
 
Cdre. Will, look in "A Merry Read an Bonney" for book suggestions. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":yes" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /> <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/par-ty.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":cheers" border="0" alt="par-ty.gif" />

<a href="http://forum.piratesahoy.net/ftopic1660.php" target="_blank">http://forum.piratesahoy.net/ftopic1660.php</a>
 
Try "Under the Black Flag" By David Cordingly. It should be considered the Bible to Historical Researchers in the Pirate Golden Age Time Period.
 
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