Period correct ships

[irR4tiOn4L]

Hi everyone, another topic, this time on the ships that appear in the different time periods.

I know that many ships are already restricted in terms of the period when they will appear, but I wonder with ship packs and an ever expanding roster of ships, if these restrictions shouldnt be more strict.

Im playing the Tales of a Chevalier quest which occurs in the mid 17th century, and the discord between Treasure and war galleons and man of wars like the the 60 gun La Couronne compared to the far more advanced 1st, 2nd and 3rd rate 3 deckers (which shouldnt be appearing till the 1700s), advanced frigates and corvettes and pinnaces is just too great. Playing in the 1600's, I would like to use and encounter only those ships which could reasonably be expected of that time period. Its only 50 years since the East India Trading Company used its 1595 38 gun flagship galleon 'Red Dragon' on its first voyages to the East Indies. Why should i now be encountering the VOC Amsterdam or other heavy East Indiamen?

Likewise, its less than 100 years since the Spanish armada and some 30 years since the French have launched their most modern man of war, the 60 gun La Couronne - one of the most advanced ships of the time. It seems strange then that I am able to capture a 90 gun 2nd rate more akin to the late 18th century from the Spanish. And what of Galleons when better trade vessels are already available? Likewise, if i were playing in 1800, while it might be a nice surprise to see the La Couronne almost 200 years old, it doesnt quite feel right to be seeing Carracks and caravels (still), especially not in large numbers.


I think the number of different ships in the game is reaching a point where the policy should shift from plurality to plausibility. It would add a lot of life to some older ships where they might be in their own element in the earlier time periods. It would give the player more reason to try all the different time periods with a very different experience in each, and it would create a continuity and feel of progression to sail a 90 gun 2nd rate in 1805 and encounter a (very rare) la couronne legacy warship from 200 years prior.

Many ships are already restricted of course, but many other types - frigates, corvettes, ships of the line etc - seem to be available in all the time periods.


Just a thought i guess.

 

[Armada]

Period encounters are something I'm looking at for the next ship pack, so I'd appreciate any suggestions for specific improvements.
I agree, it is something that will help to improve the diversity of the experience between the storylines, so that's why I'm trying to correct these things.
Ideally, it would be helpful to identify ships showing up:

1. in incorrect periods
2. with incorrect nations
3. too frequently
4. too scarcely

That way, I can correct them easily through the code without having to address every ship individually.
Plus, I'm sure my historical knowledge isn't as good as that of many members here.

 

[irR4tiOn4L]

My nautical knowledge is not brilliant either, but wikipedia helps and you learn bit at a time. It is sufficient, i think, to realize that these ships improved greatly over the course of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries and evolved in style.

I will start making a list on what i find during gameplay and how common/when certain ships should appear. Generally what i do is look up a specific ship, type of ship or near analogue and look at when it was launched and decommissioned, how many crew and what its shape was. Unfortunately speed is not available in wikipedia, but you can infer what later ships of the line made in different winds from the original Beaufort scale, that the 64 and 74 gunners were better sailors than the 2nd and 1st rates, and that the galleon type early man of wars were probably more unwieldy than the Victory/Agamemnon etc 18th century well known ones. Speed isnt something you are changing, but it is worth bearing in mind because I doubt an early 17th century frigate would have made 14 knots or been as fast as the late 18th century ones, and this is important to reflect ingame.

An important decision is whether to exclude ships because their stats are too good, even if they might otherwise fit. Some of the fast war galleons might be an example of this - the ship model itself might fit the period, but does a speed of 12 kn? Many ships are obvious choices - man of wars that look like they belong in the 18th century, heavy east indiamen, late 18th century frigates etc; the mid 17th century should have largely galleon like larger ships. However, many ships are not easy at all - smaller ships in particular. Are the barques and luggers correct visually and stats wise for the 17th 18th or 19th centuries? That question will take some research.

In terms of how common different ship types are, its a bit of a gameplay compromise. However, even with that in mind the larger ships are generally too common, warships in particular. There arent all that many barques or square rigger cargo ships but there are quite a few luggers, schooners and sloops. Xebecs were historically hardly, if at all, present in the Caribbean due to the difficulty of crossing open ocean for them. There arent that many ingame though. The other thing id look at is what ships pirates get - they need a different scale to the other nations, based on speed - most of their ships should be sloops, luggers, cutters and so forth, with a few schooners/brigs and barques/square rigger for good measure and some corvettes/frigates. I wouldnt give them anything larger than that. In the 17th century, since Galleons were quite fast for that time, galleons should be the equivalent of pirates with frigates in later time periods, but beyond the 17th century i wouldnt really want to see them in what is then quite a slow ship.

It will probably be useful to look at some of the ingame ship types, list what ships they were based on and when those ships were commissioned/decommissioned and where they fit in the scheme of things, so ill start adding that here as i research these ships.

 

[Armada]

Thank you very much for doing this research!

I agree with what you mentioned about larger ships; they seem to ruin the gameplay for many people, especially those who want to sail smaller vessels successfully.
So I'll look into reducing encounter chances for some large ships as well.
Another thing is pirate ships, and you're quite right that many of them are far too sluggish and big in some cases.
Luckily I do have a list of ships with their various stats, which includes whether pirates can use them, so I'll see what I can do there.

You also mentioned perhaps having some older, well built 17th century ships appearing extremely rarely in later periods.
That might be interesting, as some vessels might become more valued by many people.
If there are any particular ships, like La Couronne, which might be good to do this with, it could be worth giving it a go.
Either way, all this work will certainly improve the atmosphere of each period!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I agree with all the above; the more differences there are between the periods, the better it is!
No point in having a periods mod if things are samey-samey anyway!

 

[irR4tiOn4L]

I am reevaluating a lot of what i thought would be the case - the La Couronne is a good example of how quickly things moved in the period. The following are French ships of the line (that i could find) of the 17th Century

La Couronne - 68 gun war Galleon - 52 metres long + 10m bowsprit, 14.3 metres beam - 643 crew - commissioned 1636 - scrapped 1645
- "One of the most advanced ships of the time" clearly shows how short a 'time' was referred to. Took part in siege of Hondarribia and an expedition to Spain in 1639, fought in Europe.

Le Triomphant - ship of line - launched 1667 - decommissioned 1689

Assure - 54 guns, ship of the line - displacement 950 tons - built 1667 - broken up 1689
- fitted as fireship from 1674, took part in the battle of Stromboli and Battle of Palermo, was part of Jean Bart's fleet from 1681 and fought in the Mediterranean and Europe her entire career

Dauphin Royal - 104 gun first rate ship of line - displacement 1800 tonnes - 53 metres long, 14 metres beam, 6.6 metres draught - 760 crew - launched 1668 - broken up 1700
- Took part in the nine years war and battle of beachy head

Royal Louis - 118 gun 1st rate - built 1668 - sold in 1694
- Flagship of French fleet in Mediterranean

Temeraire - ship of line - built 1669 - sunk 1694 (by a frigate!)
- fought in battle of bevezier, battle of barfleur and battle of lagos (portugal), sunk by HMS Montagu (52 gun 3rd rate frigate)

Lys - 70 gun 3 decker ship of line - displacement 1500 tonnes - 46 metres long, 12.9 metres beam, 6.5 meters draught - 450 to 500 crew - launched 1669 - broken up 1689
- Fought barbary corsairs and numerous battles in and around the Mediterranean

Agreable - 56 gun, 3rd rank ship of the line - displacement 1000 tons - 40 metres long, 11.25 metres beam, 5.5 metres draught - 300 to 400 crew - built 1670 - scrapped 1717
- left for India in 1700 to ferry gold back to France

Soleil Royal - 112, later 104 gun 1st rate - displacement 1630 tonnes - 61 meters long, 15.64 meters beam, 7.64 meters draught - 836 crew - built 1670 - destroyed by fireship 1692
- Beautiful ship, stayed unused in Brest harbour till the 9 years war, fought in Battle of Beachy Head, Battle of Barfleur and Battle of La Hougue

Le Triomphant - ship of line - launched 1675 - destroyed in combat by fire 1692
- took part in Battle of Bevezier, Battle of Barfleur and destroyed while fighting HMS Woolf

Soleil Royal - 104 gun 1st rate - 56 metres long, 15 metres beam, 7.33 metres draught - launched 1692 - scuttled 1707

Royal Louis - 112 gun 1st rate ship of line - displacement 3928 tonnes - launched 1692 - broken up 1727

Triomphant (seriously, let it go) - 94-98 gun 3 decker 1st rate - launched 1693 - condemned 1717
- Fought in battle of Velez Malaga and sunk in shallow water in Toulon to avoid fire bomb ships. Later refloated and then condemned


This doesnt sound like a complete list to me, since its just 13 ships whereas 75 ships of the line were deployed by the French in the battle of Beachy Head in 1690. However, it demonstrates how busy the 1660's were - and the fact that none of these are indicated as having ever been to the Caribbean. However, these ships are a lot more modern than i expected based on the La Couronne - it seems that between the Galleon type ships like La Couronne to ships of the line like Soleil Royal, there was a huge leap in design

 

[irR4tiOn4L]

A more useful and interesting look at ships in the Caribbean, in terms of lineships, is to consider the Battles of Havana 1748 and 1762

Note the ships that fought in the Battle of Havana 1748

Britain
Cornwall 80 (flag, Charles Knowles)
Lenox 70 (Charles Holmes)
Tilbury 60 (Charles Pawlet)
Strafford 60 (David Brodie)
Warwick 60 (Thomas Innes)
Canterbury 60 (Edward Clarke)
Oxford 50 (Edmund Toll)

Spain
Africa 70/74 (flag 1, Andrés Reggio y Brachiforte)
Invencible 70/74 (flag 2, Benito Spínola)
Conquistador 60/64 (Tomás de San Justo)
Dragón 60/64 (Manuel de Paz)
Nueva España 60/64 (Fernando Varela)
Real Familia 60/64 (Marcos Forastal)
Galga 30/36 (Pedro de Garaycoechea)

These are all second and third rates, however there is a surprising number of the them in the Caribbean.


Heres another interesting thing; in the Battle for Havana 1762, the British brought 23 ships of the line and the Spanish 9.

Furthermore, they had seized 20% of the ships of the line of the Spanish Navy, namely Aquilón (74), Conquistador (74), Reina (70), San Antonio (64), Tigre (70), San Jenaro (60), África (70), América (60), Infante (74) and Soberano (74), together with 3 frigates, 9 smaller vessels and some armed vessels belonging to trading companies (Compañía de La Habana and Compañía de Caracas). Furthermore, two new almost-completed ships of the line were seized in the dockyards - San Carlos (80) and Santiago (60 or 80).

20% of Spain's ships of the line - 10 - could be found guarding Havana. Havana was capable of building them and had 2 more in progress. None of these were 1st rates; almost all were 3rd rates.



This leads me to a couple of conclusions - the chance of meeting a ship of the line in open waters should be very low, but around islands there should be a very good chance of encountering a squadron of defending ships of the line - the more important the port, the higher the chance. Between Portugal, Spain, France, Britain and the Netherlands the number of ships of the line that might reasonably be encountered could be as much as 25 to 50, mostly 3rd rates.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that almost all ports should have at least 1 defending ship of the line at anchor, and almost never would you encounter them on the move. Like most capital ships, they seem to have sat in port a lot

 

[Armada]

So ships of the line are supposed to be fairly common, but only around the islands?
I don't know how- or if- we can make them appear near land specifically, but it does sound like a good idea.
Certainly for towns with smaller/weaker forts, a large ship would be very helpful in its defence.

About the design change throughout the decades, that's very interesting.
The French certainly were busy during the 1660's, and just look at the incredibly beautiful designs they produced!
And it's strange how the name Triomphant comes up three times within about 30 years. And they say pirates are an "unimaginable lot when it comes to naming things"... :

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Actually, we probably CAN generate certain ships only around the islands.
The only issue would be DIrectSail encounters, since these would also be "around the islands".
But I think we could find a way around that.

If you want, add a line refShip.island = true; to the ships that should be at islands only and I'll see if I can handle the coding at some point.
Be sure to remind me if I don't do it...

 

[irR4tiOn4L]

I honestly cant say if they were 'common' based on the little research ive done - but i do think that most important ports would be protected by various coastguard cutters/sloops and frigates/4th/3rd rates at bay, especially in times of war.

Certainly, it seems that quite large squadrons of ships of the line did make their way to the Caribbean - in the second battle of havana, those 9-10 ships of the line were stationed there. It should be remembered though, that Havana was a very important port for the Spanish.

Still - spain, england, dutch, france, portugal - etc - if each had just one important port and 5 ships of the line there - thats 25 already.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Around a year ago someone was posting links to a great site that talks about this subject. From memory ships of the line were rare in the Caribbean until the 1700s. There was a problem with some worm eating the hulls so that ships only lasted 1-2 years. SotL were too expensive to waste like that. Maybe it wasn't until better coatings or copper sheaths were used that the larger ships started appearing. Wish I had bookmarked those sites.....

PS: Just found one site. http://www.thepirateking.com/index.htm

 

[Armada]

If you want, add a line refShip.island = true; to the ships that should be at islands only and I'll see if I can handle the coding at some point.
Be sure to remind me if I don't do it...

Aye, aye, cap'n! I'll add those lines commented out until further notice.
We just need to establish exactly which ships we want to see behaving like this- and their encounter chances.

We might need to add some sort of code which stops huge ships from appearing at, say, pirate settlements, since they certainly wouldn't have this kind of defence.
Would it be possible to set the individual chances of having large defending ships for each island...?
For example, some islands might not be important enough to their nation for this, whereas others which are key ports would be.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Hmm... that does get more complex. I was just intending to find the "random encounter at sea" code and put in a line "if coastal ship, do not generate".
Let me know if you have any specifics on how you'd WANT it to work and I'll see if I can figure anything out at some point...

 

[irR4tiOn4L]

Around a year ago someone was posting links to a great site that talks about this subject. From memory ships of the line were rare in the Caribbean until the 1700s. There was a problem with some worm eating the hulls so that ships only lasted 1-2 years. SotL were too expensive to waste like that. Maybe it wasn't until better coatings or copper sheaths were used that the larger ships started appearing. Wish I had bookmarked those sites.....

PS: Just found one site. http://www.thepirateking.com/index.htm

I use that site a lot, its great.

Should point out that shipworm or whatever they were called affected ALL ships before the late 1700's (copper plating perfected) and was not particular to the Caribbean.

Common practice was to apply 'wood sheathing' - an extra layer of wood for the worm to attack, and then 'tarring' ('graving and paying') that sheathing. This worked, at the expense of some speed and handling. This could easily be repaired and replaced at dry dock - but needed to be done at regular intervals (hence the '1-2 years' that ships would 'last' there before needing to move to a capable drydock in which to conduct repairs). Copper sheathing initially in experiments by Sir Humphry Davy was effective but reacted with iron bolts, causing even worse damage to the ships. Only with the war of independence did the Royal Navy set about coppering the bottoms of the entire fleet

With the American war in full swing, the Royal Navy set about coppering the bottoms of the entire fleet. This would not have been possible but for the declarations of war from France (1778), Spain (1779) and the Netherlands (1780). Britain was now expected to face her three greatest rivals, and coppering allowed the navy to keep at sea for much longer periods of time without the need for cleaning and repairs to the underwater hull, making it a very attractive, if expensive, proposition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_sheathing

Shipworm was a problem, but not the reason ships of the line did not visit the Caribbean

 

[Armada]

Hmm... that does get more complex. I was just intending to find the "random encounter at sea" code and put in a line "if coastal ship, do not generate".
Let me know if you have any specifics on how you'd WANT it to work and I'll see if I can figure anything out at some point...

OK then, if we started at the most 'basic' end, could we make sure that defending ships do not appear near pirate settlements?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Preventing them around certain islands would be doable; limiting them to PORTS is a different story. No idea how to do that...

 

[Armada]

OK then, how about simply preventing defending ships from islands with pirates on them, regardless of any other settlements there?
Other than that, you could just have them around the more powerful colonies. But then, of course, comes the question of period changes...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

What I reckon I can do is prevent certain ships from showing up in worldmap encounters and maybe even in the DirectSail encounters.
Then we can change the code that decided which ships will not show up, which could depend on the island ID.

It should be possible also to actually put defending ships on locators near the ports, but that goes beyond my coding knowledge.

 

[Armada]

Choosing which islands they can/cannot be encountered at is a good enough start, I reckon.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'll try to remember to do that some time soon; should be doable...