Feature Request Respawning in tavern damages skill

[Levis]

So I was thinking about adding something to the respawn mechanic. Now it's a bit to convenient if you are doing battles. So what is a random skill is damages by 1 point if you respawn in a tavern after dieying? It could still in some cases be profitable and wont force people instantly to reload their game but it does offer a bit more penalty.

 

[Talisman]

Now it's a bit to convenient if you are doing battles.

The main penalties of the respawning in the Tavern are that the player:-

Looses some weapons they are carrying (including the one they have equipped - which will probably be their best/favourite)

Ship is heavily damaged

Some Crew are killed/desert

Some cargo is lost ( not sure )

which can hardly be described as " convenient"

So reducing a random skill by 1 or 2 - is not going to influence a player's decision whether or not to reload a Saved game.

 

[Talisman]

If you want to do a quick check to see what happens when the player resurrects in the tavern then:-

Set Options - Survival Chance to enable you to survive

Select Jean de La Croix ( Tales of a Chevalier ) in Freeplay

At start Press F2 - before the man on the beach talks to you - check ship - cargo - crew - inventory etc. make a note of details

Talk to man on beach & let him kill you

In Tavern room Press F2 and check items again -- may not loose many personal items, because you don't have much to start with ( unless you give yourself lots of stuff with the consol before the man talks to you on the beach ( before you press F2 )

 

[Levis]

If you want to do a quick check to see what happens when the player resurrects in the tavern then:-

Set Options - Survival Chance to enable you to survive

Select Jean de La Croix ( Tales of a Chevalier ) in Freeplay

At start Press F2 - before the man on the beach talks to you - check ship - cargo - crew - inventory etc. make a note of details

Talk to man on beach & let him kill you

In Tavern room Press F2 and check items again -- may not loose many personal items, because you don't have much to start with ( unless you give yourself lots of stuff with the consol before the man talks to you on the beach ( before you press F2 )

True, but now rob a merchant and fight off the guards untill you get killed. Or rob a merchand and try to kill as many people before you get killed with autoloot enabled. Probably the amount of money and items you gather in this process will be more then the amount you lost by dieying. At least thats what I see some people sugest..

 

[Talisman]

If players want to play the game that way ( by robbing merchants ) then that is their right and they are entitled to all the money they get that way.

If other players don't like the fact that you can get lots of money that way then all they have to do is not play that way.

One of the problems with the New Horizons mod is that it is so large and the modders in the past have tried to make it so that players have the freedom to play in whatever way they choose.

There are ways of playing which to some players may appear as "cheats" - but they are not really cheats - just a different way of playing used by players who like to play that way.

What we have to careful to avoid is one group of players imposing their way of playing the game on others.

If it is a problem resulting from the Thief Knife being available at the beginning of the game ( I think I saw a post about that : Unconfirmed Bug - [4.1] Old bug Thief Knife pickpocket farm | PiratesAhoy! ).

Then make it available only once the player gets to a higher level - though again this may go against what I said above.

If killing merchants is really considered a "cheat" --- then would it be possible to make their inventory unavailable when they were killed. Or just make them immortal.

 

[Tingyun]

If killing merchants is really considered a "cheat" --- then would it be possible to make their inventory unavailable when they were killed. Or just make them immortal.

That might be too harsh--as you say, if a player wants to rob a merchant, they should have the freedom to do so. It is a cheat if they rely on dying to keep the stuff, but not a cheat if they are able to get away with it honestly, and we want to keep the option.

@Levis But I agree with Talisman that a skill loss is not the way to do this. A new player who wants to rob merchants and then die won't care, low level skills are easy to increase anyway.

If you want to be both realistic and remove the kill merchants exploit, then you could just have the entire inventory of currently carried items and all gold be removed from the player on death, so they still have stuff they carefully saved by placing it in their ship's chest. Why would the player's enemies not loot his body of all the nice stuff currently carried? Players can still protect their stuff by storing in the ship's chest.

(and then make a toggle, and default this to OFF for arcade mode, ON for realistic, or maybe ironman, and user configurable)

It will still be exploitable by a careful player though (rob the merchant, run to the nearest chest in the town scene, dump everything into it). But maybe we think a clever player who thinks to stash his ill-gotten gains before being apprehended deserves a reward.

So not sure if it matters too much, as people who kill a merchant and keep all his stuff after dying probably know they are cheating anyway, so it's not like an honest player will often stumble into this unawares. I think @Talisman is right about that, they know what they are doing here, and no particular need to prevent it if they want to play in an obviously cheating way.

Still, might be nice for realistic or ironman mode, as being looted by the enemies makes sense. But then again may just cause people to load saved games.

What I would really like: Guards apprehend you rather than killing you if you commit crimes (with a dialogue option, and if you 'resist arrest', then you will permanetly die if killed), your items are confiscated and some of them (not all) stored in an evidence chest the prison scene, and then you have to break out of prison like it works in some quests (gambler/rogue openeing, or ardent opening, both have fun prison sequences), or bribe guards, or other options with risks rewards (like in elder scrolls games).

Another option would be the sid meir's pirates route, where if you are apprehended, you go to a seperate "prison" screen, and some months pass before you can escape. So you lose more time. And then you still have to do an escape quest maybe. Eh, if only we could wish these things into the game rather than have to mod them in with work.

 

[Talisman]

It is a cheat if they rely on dying to keep the stuff, but not a cheat if they are able to get away with it honestly, and we want to keep the option.

...... A new player who wants to rob merchants and then die won't care, low level skills are easy to increase anyway.

If you want to be both realistic and remove the kill merchants exploit, then you could just have the entire inventory of currently carried items and all gold be removed from the player on death, so they still have stuff they carefully saved by placing it in their ship's chest. Why would the player's enemies not loot his body of all the nice stuff currently carried? Players can still protect their stuff by storing in the ship's chest.

(and then make a toggle, and default this to OFF for arcade mode, ON for realistic, or maybe ironman, and user configurable)

It will still be exploitable by a careful player though (rob the merchant, run to the nearest chest in the town scene, dump everything into it). But maybe we think a clever player who thinks to stash his ill-gotten gains before being apprehended deserves a reward.

Remember also that there are already penalties for killing merchants that can't be avoided -

-100 reputation points ( can takes player to lowest reputation )

Players nation changed to Pirate.

And if they use resurrection - damage to ship etc.

If players want to kill merchants & accept the penalties - that's OK.

 

[Tingyun]

I generally agree @Talisman , though if you just use a thiefknife to rob the merchant, are the penalties as bad? I'm not sure, I don't play that way.

Anyway, I also think if a player says "I am immortal, time to rob a merchant and respawn with all his stuff" they are already deciding to effectivelly turn on cheatmode and press the +100,000 gold button, just doing it in a more convulated manner. Some people like cheats, I don't mind. I think @Levis is thinking of a player who came here and reported this as unbalancing the game recently, but that player seems oddly unaware that they were basically cheating...

But I love the idea of prison sequences and being apprehended alive by guards, though that would be a beta 15 thing if at all.

 

[Levis]

@Talisman how is the thiefs knife obtained again?

 

[Tingyun]

@Levis Easy to obtain, talk to NPCs, until you get one that sells thief items. The sandbag for knocking people out is usually more useful though I think, obtained in the same way. I don't think restricting access to either is the way, it would make it impossible to roleplay a low level thief.

If the thiefknife didn't provide the entire inventory of the person, but instead gave you 1 random item they carry, or just their equiped weapon and a couple hundred gold, that would be realistic. Not like a thiefknife should let you take 30 items.

The sandbag, maybe instead of the dialogue for unconcious people giving you everything, since they are still halfway concious (just dizzy), it could give you just their weapon and a couple hundred gold.

Then if you wanted everything, you would have to kill them, and bear the penalties.

EDIT: I also wish the thief merchants weren't part of the merchant's guild, so you could steal from them without penalty. After all, they are selling illegal goods!

 

[Talisman]

I generally agree @Talisman , though if you just use a thiefknife to rob the merchant, are the penalties as bad? I'm not sure, I don't play that way.

I think it is less damage to players reputation (just a few points ) - no change to players Nation - Soldiers don't attack you just the Merchants's Guild people ( if you kill merchant then Soldiers & merchant's Guild attack player).


Not really sure - since I don't play this way ( only played a bit just now to check things for this thread. )

 

[Tingyun]

Thanks for testing it out- I'd say I completely agree with you, the penalties are enough becoming a pirate and such if you actually kill a merchant.

If the thief knife and sandbag can be changed as per my previous post to only give a couple of items, so that you have to kill the merchant if you want his entire inventory, then after that change, if players want to rely on immortality AND get the penalties for actually killing the merchant, then let them go ahead and do that, as you say.

EDIT: Meanwhile, maybe it could be made so that the thief knife and sandbag then aren't automatic calling of the guards, so that there is some possibility to get some things from the merchant. Maybe if the target is a merchant you can grab 1-3 random items per try, but each time you risk him calling the guards, all modified by sneak skill.

If we want to flesh out the thief roleplaying, more about that than this particular exploit.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I haven't read everything that is said above, but as near as I know, most people reload their last save anyway if they get killed and resurrected.
So there is absolutely no need to give them am additional incentive to do just that.
Stealing from item traders is quite hard as it is with all those enemies that spawn.

If you really want to do something about this potential exploit, then force game over if you're killed while the location is locked.
Then at least you will be unable to keep those items you took, but players are not prevented from trying.

I've put quite some effort into deliberately NOT taking that liberty away.

 

[Tingyun]

@Pieter Boelen That's basically what both @Talisman and I have argued earlier.

Our current preference seems to be to not mess with the death (unless my idea in beta 15 or later switching to guard's throwing the character in prison) at all, as the hero already goes -100 rep, and if players want to exploit immortality, let them.

Instead the idea might be to change the thief knife and sandbag to create more interesting roleplaying options for thieves (as a side effect, would also address this exploit a bit, but that is not the main goal).