Fixed Sea Relations: Behaviour for Recognizing False Flags

[Thagarr]

Taking into account all the above, I propose we develop this change in stages and see what effect our changes have.

First Stage:
When recognized you auto-hoist your Personal Flag, unless you are a professional navy character in which case you hoist your Served Nation Flag

Second Stage:
Figure out how to treat non-navy characters. For example, make privateers fly their Served Nation Flag instead of Personal Flag as well.

Perhaps some sort of extra toggle between both behaviours would be required. This could be related to:
- Separate toggle for "Patriot": Agh! I like to avoid those if I can.
- Linked to Realism Mode: Eg. on Arcade your Personal Flag is used and on any other mode it is not
- Linked to Player Ability: Perk-related (see below)
- Linked to Player Action or Event: Fame-related or after special event (see below)

I think perk related makes the most sense to me.

Third Stage:
Figure out how to bring some extra realism to the use of your Personal Flag. Couple of options:
- No Personal Flag at all: This does not sound like a good idea to me....
- Personal Flag only available on Arcade Game Mode
- Personal Flag "unlocked" after getting a to-be-added "Personal Nation" perk
- Personal Flag "unlocked" after reaching a certain fame level (would finally give players some incentive to actually BE famous)
- Personal Flag "unlocked" after capturing a town for yourself and therefore establishing your own nation as being a political faction

In my opinion, #4 works best. Certainly flying your own flag would give you a reputation, in some cases, not necessarily a good one!

Fourth Stage:
Think of what other things should be affected by all the above. Such as:
- Should getting multiple LoMs at the same time be allowed or not? This may call for another player ability to unlock multiple LoMs.
- Should Personal Nation remain a starting game option?
At the moment that is a bit of an easy choice, because it starts you out as being friendly with everyone except the pirates.

I also really like the idea of perks for multiple letters of marque, as well as being ridiculously expensive to obtain. I do think personal nation should still be an option, just my two doubloons worth.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Perhaps it is because I am too tired now, but I am confused.

So you suggest that as Privateer you will auto-hoist your Personal Flag ONLY if you have gotten a to-be-added "personal nation" ability?
But unlocking your Personal Flag would be fame-based?

Certainly flying your own flag would give you a reputation, in some cases, not necessarily a good one!

That sounds like the opposite of what I meant. I suggested that you cannot hoist your personal flag until you become sort-of famous.
But you say that using your personal flag should make you famous.

Did I get that right?

Ugh, time for a break....

 

[Thagarr]

Perhaps I misunderstood the situation, my responses were also not very descriptive, so I will try and expand a bit. Based on the scenario in the poll, sailing under a false flag into an enemy port. If you are recognized as flying a false flag and fired upon, a naval officer would hoist his nations flag and continue the fight or withdraw, depending on circumstances. The way I see it, this would be the standard response for the personal nation ability.

A privateer might not want to make his true nation known for various reasons, and might be inclined to let fly yet another false flag, that second false flag should be tied to a perk. That second flag could also be a personal flag, again, tied to a different perk, that would help confuse true nation even more.

Capturing forts, colony's or ships under a personal flag, even while serving as a privateer can be quite a dangerous strategy and could easily get you branded as a pirate. Captain Kidd found that out the hard way. The third perk for personal flag should be very effective at hiding your true nation or identity, but should have some possible consequences.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Interesting ideas. Makes things more complicated though.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I installed 3.4 last night and have played it and I am still being recognized by ships on the other side of the island even when I am flying a friendly flag and am at rank 5 with no fame or anything.

It is disheartening to so far from an island that it is just a silhouette and see another silhouette break from one side of it, break out the spyglass, and see that it is a warship heading directly at you under full sails. It was like this 2 years ago making all this talk about false flags a joke.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

We haven't changed anything related to false flag detection. It is now as it was a year ago.

It is however quite dependent on difficulty. If I recall, we discussed the balancing on it before, but we never saw it through.

The relevant code is the GetChanceDetectFalseFlag function in PROGRAM\NATIONS\nations.c:

float GetChanceDetectFalseFlag()
{
   // original code -->
   //   float rank = GetRankFromPoints(GetScore(GetMainCharacter()));
   //   return CHANCE_DETECT_FALSE_FLAG_BASE+(CHANCE_DETECT_FALSE_FLAG_MAX-CHANCE_DETECT_FALSE_FLAG_BASE)*rank/MAX_RANK;
   // original code <--

   // LDH -->
   ref mchr = GetMainCharacter(); // KK
   float score  = GetScore(mchr); // KK
   float rank  = GetRankFromPoints(score);
   int  sneak  = GetSummonSkillFromName(mchr, SKILL_SNEAK);
   int difficulty = GetDifficulty();
   float chance = rank/MAX_RANK * (11.0-sneak)/10.0;
   chance = chance * difficulty/2.0;     // 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0
   //   chance = chance * (difficulty+1)/3.0;     // alternate difficulty calculation 0.67, 1,0, 1.33, 1.67
   chance = fclamp(CHANCE_DETECT_FALSE_FLAG_BASE, CHANCE_DETECT_FALSE_FLAG_MAX, chance); // PURSEON: so chance doesn't go over min/max
   //   LogIt("False Flag Detection - Score: " + score + ", rank: " + rank + ", Sneak: " + sneak + ", Chance: " + chance*100.0 + "%"); // for testing
   //   LogIt("The chance of your false flag being detected is " + chance*100.0 + "%");   // Tell the player, it might get him used to looking for it.
   return chance;
   // LDH <--
}

What you can do is to replace this:

  chance = chance * difficulty/2.0;     // 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0
   //   chance = chance * (difficulty+1)/3.0;     // alternate difficulty calculation 0.67, 1,0, 1.33, 1.67

With this:

  //   chance = chance * difficulty/2.0;     // 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0
   chance = chance * (difficulty+1)/3.0;     // alternate difficulty calculation 0.67, 1,0, 1.33, 1.67

Or even this:

chance = chance * 0.5;

That last line throws difficulty out of the equation altogether and fixes the false flag detection chance to what it would currently be on Apprentice level.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Will try the first solution.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Here's to hoping we can find something that doesn't mess you up!

 

[Grey Roger]

First Stage:
When recognized you auto-hoist your Personal Flag, unless you are a professional navy character in which case you hoist your Served Nation Flag

I never use personal flags at all. If a version forces me to do so for any reason, I will probably not play that version.

Second Stage:

Figure out how to treat non-navy characters. For example, make privateers fly their Served Nation Flag instead of Personal Flag as well.

But when this is implemented, I'll be back up to date. Especially if...

Third Stage:

Figure out how to bring some extra realism to the use of your Personal Flag. Couple of options:
...
- Personal Flag "unlocked" after getting a to-be-added "Personal Nation" perk
- Personal Flag "unlocked" after reaching a certain fame level (would finally give players some incentive to actually BE famous)
- Personal Flag "unlocked" after capturing a town for yourself and therefore establishing your own nation as being a political faction

... it's perk-related, because then all I have to do to never use Personal Flag is never spend Ability Points to take that perk.

But I see a potential Catch-22 situation here. Personal Flag unlocked after capturing a town for yourself, which you can't do unless you have a Personal Flag.

Fourth Stage:

Think of what other things should be affected by all the above. Such as:
- Should getting multiple LoMs at the same time be allowed or not? This may call for another player ability to unlock multiple LoMs.
- Should Personal Nation remain a starting game option?

Multiple LoM's are realistic, as I mentioned in another thread - there's even record of at least one captain getting LoM's on both sides of a war. It should not need any special ability, though it might be fame-related. The governor of San Juan might be willing to let me have a LoM if he's never heard of me before. He might be less willing to do so if I'm already famous in the service of Britain, especially if Britain and Spain are at war.

Personal Nation is a bit meaningless if you can't have a Personal Flag until you've earned it.

As for forts not recognising you when ships do, there's a possible explanation. Ships' officers have been around a bit and may know small details which blow your cover. For example, in "Chronicles of Horatio Hornblower", specifically "The Devil And The Duchess" (and the TV episode on which it's based), Hornblower's attempt to escape a Spanish fleet under a false French flag fails because one of the Spanish officers knows how Hornblower's previously French ship was captured. The fort's garrison, being stuck there, don't know such details. All the fort sees is two ships flying friendly flags yet firing at each other, and doesn't know which one is false - they may even be two captains of the same nation with a grudge against one another.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I never use personal flags at all. If a version forces me to do so for any reason, I will probably not play that version.

But when this is implemented, I'll be back up to date. Especially if...

That's why we try to think this through now, so that nobody has to get annoyed by any changes we make.

... it's perk-related, because then all I have to do to never use Personal Flag is never spend Ability Points to take that perk.

That also sounds like the simplest solution for players to me.

Only question then is if that should be a perk you can get straight away in the early game or if we should add dependencies/unlock actions to let the player have it only later?

But I see a potential Catch-22 situation here. Personal Flag unlocked after capturing a town for yourself, which you can't do unless you have a Personal Flag.

I was suggesting doing only one of those things. Not all at the same time!

As for forts not recognising you when ships do, there's a possible explanation. Ships' officers have been around a bit and may know small details which blow your cover. For example, in "Chronicles of Horatio Hornblower", specifically "The Devil And The Duchess" (and the TV episode on which it's based), Hornblower's attempt to escape a Spanish fleet under a false French flag fails because one of the Spanish officers knows how Hornblower's previously French ship was captured. The fort's garrison, being stuck there, don't know such details. All the fort sees is two ships flying friendly flags yet firing at each other, and doesn't know which one is false - they may even be two captains of the same nation with a grudge against one another.

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

But still, it doesn't really help with making the game any more interesting.
Also, players have mentioned that they found it weird before, so apparently it does stand out as being not-quite-right.

 

[Grey Roger]

Only question then is if that should be a perk you can get straight away in the early game or if we should add dependencies/unlock actions to let the player have it only later?

I'll abstain from that one. Partly because I almost always play with locked perks disabled, and partly because it's not a perk I'll be taking. Those who actually have an interest in the perk can decide how it will work.

But still, it doesn't really help with making the game any more interesting.
Also, players have mentioned that they found it weird before, so apparently it does stand out as being not-quite-right.

The problem with any attempt to fix it remains the same. During "Tales of a Sea Hawk", you must enter St. Pierre port to meet the docker who takes money from you to tell you about the Oiseau. You'll also need to leave the same way while escorting the Oiseau. This will be difficult if the fort is firing at you. Depending on how your relations with Spain go, you may have a similar problem later when, after the storm, you arrive at San Juan - you must dock at the port to meet your crew and trigger the next part of the quest.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The problem with any attempt to fix it remains the same. During "Tales of a Sea Hawk", you must enter St. Pierre port to meet the docker who takes money from you to tell you about the Oiseau. You'll also need to leave the same way while escorting the Oiseau. This will be difficult if the fort is firing at you. Depending on how your relations with Spain go, you may have a similar problem later when, after the storm, you arrive at San Juan - you must dock at the port to meet your crew and trigger the next part of the quest.

With my suggestion of auto-hoisting your actual flag if you are recognized, there are two things that need to happen before the fort opens fire:
1. There must be ships actually near the fort to recognize you, because for whatever reason forts cannot recognize you on their own
2. Those ships that are near must then actually recognize you as well. Especially in the early game, that should not happen too quickly.

So there are two ways this can go:
1. There aren't any ships near the fort or you wait until they are gone before you go in
2. You go in while there ARE potentially enemy ships around and you might still be OK since they won't necessarily recognize you

Also note that the chance of being recognized increases if you get closer to ships.
So if you just stay away from them, you should generally be OK.

Provided we manage to sort out the difficulty modifier as per above posts, that is.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

False flags do not work.

The only reason to fly a national flag is to keep the fort from firing on you.

The only solution I have found is to save and then keep reloading until it is clear.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

False flags do not work.

Do not work in what way?
Are you still being recognized too quickly?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Maybe, maybe not. They no longer come after me from the other side of the island, but if I can see them they can see me and do come after me. The only solution for me is to keep reloading or going in and out of map mode until there are no ships in sight. What flag I fly makes no difference at all.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

When there is actual recognizing going on, you get a log message on the screen.
It would be good to know if what you notice actually is due to being recognized or whether anything else is going on.

For testing purposes, you can also switch to Apprentice game mode and see if that changes the behaviour for you.
You can also do this, which would have just about the same effect without changing the difficulty level:

What you can do is to replace this:

  chance = chance * difficulty/2.0;     // 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0
   //   chance = chance * (difficulty+1)/3.0;     // alternate difficulty calculation 0.67, 1,0, 1.33, 1.67

With this:

chance = chance * 0.5;

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Umm no. They come after me with and without any message and shoot at me while showing as both gray and red.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

They shoot at you when they're GRAY????

For the red ones, do they start out as red or do they turn red at some point?
With the actual false flag recognising, they start out Green and turn red at the same time you get the log message about being recognised.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Yes.

It varies a lot. Sometimes when I fly a false flag the stay gray and come charging and fire as soon as they get in range.

Sometimes they start out gray, I get the message, and then a little later they turn red.

Sometimes they are red when I see them and attack immediately.

It is normal for it to take 6 or more attempts before I drop anchor at a hostile island.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Is there not a Realistic Game Mode feature that has shops on the mini map not show red when they're hostile?
I seem to remember something like that.

For the biggest test of them all, can you replace the return chance; line with return 0; instead?
That should ensure that flag recognising just does not happen anymore.
So if you then still have such issues, it must be something else going on.