• New Horizons on Maelstrom
    Maelstrom New Horizons


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Thankyou! and Ship Berthing

irR4tiOn4L

Landlubber
Storm Modder
Hi everyone, first off great job on the newest build mod, its fantastic fun. Im just incredibly impressed the way everything comes together into a dynamic game - especially with the new directsail, this is worlds above stock POTC

The second thing i wanted to ask was about ship berthing. Great feature of course, but I wanted to ask if there was a way to prevent ALL upgrades being lost when a ship is laid up. I dont mind paying for rigging repairs when its relaunched (as it warns me ill have to) but losing upgrades is not something im warned about, and its VERY expensive. It basically means that if ive got a corvette or frigate with a few upgrades my only option is shore leave - because replacing those upgrades might cost a million gold (btw, whats up with the massive inflation in this world?).

Shore leave will do the trick i guess (just have to keep hiring captains and paying the reduced rates) but itd be more immersive if laying up a ship were also an option.

Other than that, just a great big THANKS for the mod!
 
:gday

Yes, replacing all of the upgrades can be expensive. On the other hand it is possible to make money quickly by smuggling, doing trade and escort missions, and by capturing ships. :2guns I only berth big ships that are too expensive to sail until I'm ready for them. Those are the class 1,2,&3 ships. A corvette or light frigate makes a great ship for escorting a fat merchant ship like a pinnace. That is a money making combo. :drunk
 
From what I understand, there is a bug that makes the ship NOT actually lose the upgrade.
However, it loses the indication that it has it so you can reapply the upgrade and make the ship even better.
It's something we have to look into though because the upgrades should just plain stay if they're there.
Of course the Ship Upgrades mod was made long after the Ship Berthing mod and they're not quite compatible yet. :facepalm
 
Yes after looking through the forums a bit more ive realised this is not intended, but a bug. As you say, apparently the stats are kept - but are stats kept for ALL the upgrades? For example, what effect do bronze cannons or better upwind sails actually have on ship stats, and are these kept? Im not familiar with the backend, but it appears to me that a ship on shore leave still EXISTS ingame - ie you can still transfer to and from them, they are just removed from your active ship slots. But a ship layed up seems to be deleted, then replaced with an identical copy when its relaunched - the trouble being it seems to copy only stats, not some newer flags like whether upgrades have been purchased, and isnt completely 'identical

Speaking of which, what do upgrades actually DO? Some are self explanatory - like extra hullpoints - but it seems some stats given about a ship - particularly speed - really dont reflect its performance at all. Xebecs with max speeds of 14 can go upward of 20 knots (Ive had mine go faster than the wind!!) yet a fully upgraded trade brig with speed up from 11.9 to 14.2 is still slower at all points of sail than an Indiaman rated at 11. Its easy to see that upgrades somehow change the speed stats on a ship, but how well does that reflect ingame?

As for the upgrades to cannons; i have no idea how this is reflected ingame at all. It doesnt seem to boost accuracy skill
 
I've seen ships behave strangely before. One ship can go faster than the wind when sailing into that wind, and another ship will not go over 3.5 knots even in a 30 knot tailwind. :eek:k When I get a ship like that I dump it. :walkplank You got an Indiaman that was only rated for 11 knots? That is a stripped down light frigate and should go faster than that. :whipa

Getting the cannons upgrade does not boost your skill. It makes the cannons themselves more accurate. That should be taken with a grain of salt considering that the cannon bores had a clearance of 1/4 inch or 6-7 mm. :boom
 
It definitely seems a bit odd how fast some ships sail into the wind. I have sailed some pretty slow ships - tales of a chevalier starts you off in a pretty slow galleon - my favourite is actually a treasure galleon (which is quite quick for a galleon actually), but i think those ships behave accurately. It seems to me though that some ships, like that Xebec, are implausibly quick into the wind

As for that Indiaman - it definitely IS quick; not as quick as a frigate or corvette, but not far off. What gets me though is - how the heck do you judge that? I fully upgraded that trade brig but it just doesnt FEEL any quicker - its certainly still slower than that indiaman - i wonder if the upgrades did anything at all!

Matter of fact, last i tried to sail out of Hopital with that trade brig (berthed the others, wanted to get 'back to basics') I didnt make it much past eden rock before I noticed a cutter was giving chase far to the rear (and catching up frightfully fast). Wind was from roughly south and I was sailing roughly SE. Running with the wind was not an option, as that would take me RIGHT into the Spanish port there (and its very deadly fort), so i had to stand and fight.

Fight i did, and I must say that the trade brig is a surprisingly effective ship - I had a good cannon/accuracy skill and although it can only mount 14 4lb, the trade brig has 7 on each side - a fairly hefty broadside. No sooner had that cutter surrendered than I spot a sloop closing fast from the rear (just like the cutter had done earlier) - this time though, i turned the tables on the attacker - I boarded the cutter and took it over, and gave chase to the sloop which had unwisely chosen to run with the wind - at this aspect i was quicker and we did catch it, boarded it and sailed back to Hopital to sell my prizes. These encounters were not 'sail ho' generated ones either - these ships simply gave chase, probably from some far off side of the island.

It does demonstrate however that if a ship is fast WITH the wind, thats not nearly as advantageous as some of these Xebecs, sloops and cutters which are almost as fast as you with the wind but are much quicker at any other point of sail. Why would anyone choose square sails when they are far more likely to have the wind coming in at an angle? I think the way these ships sail against and perpendicular to the wind isnt a fair representation of the real vessels - surely you cannot sail at 10 knots into a 12 knot wind?
 
Yeah, I'd say that xebec is bugged. If it's rated at 14 knots then that is about how fast it should go in a 30 knot tailwind. Then, xebecs have lateen sails which give them much better performance into the wind than than square sails do. Also, if you are starting off with a slow ship, upgrading it doesn't make as much of a difference as it does with a fast ship.

Wait. What are your game settings in options? If you are playing in arcade mode, then the upwind performance of the ships is much better than in realistic mode. In realistic mode it is possible to be blown backwards when trying to sail into the wind and much tacking is required to get anywhere at all. That makes getting in and out of port much more difficult, which is why I play on arcade mode with all of the other settings the same as realistic mode. Then I just live with the unrealistic upwind performance. Try realistic mode and see if you like it. :keith
 
Thats what i thought too, so i got rid of it. Whats the point of cheating with a ship that does 22 knots at 5 degrees off being directly into a wind of 20 knots? The sailing in general is absolutely spectacular in build mod, well done, but I get the feeling the ships that are supposed to be quick into the wind have been done wrong.

Heres the thing - I know lateen are better into the wind than square and you hear all the time how some ships were better suited than others heading up/perpendicular to the wind, and im no expert, but this has to comply with basic, fundamental laws. One of those is that you do not sail FASTER than the wind. Thats ridiculous, and if a ship does that (like the Xebec i had) its wrong. But another (im deducing from physics - nautical experts welcome) is that although your ship might not have its best speed heading directly downwind, its fastest speed should not be heading UPWIND - ie, if the wind is heading from 0 degrees, your best speed, Xebec or any other ship, should be between 90-270 degrees. If you start heading INTO the wind - ie 271-89 degrees, your speed should gradually drop off. Lateen sails simply drop off slower - so that they might manage 50% best speed at 45 degrees where a square sail might manage 10% or even stall. But they are also SLOWER, in that they provide a lesser top speed at wherever that top speed is found - eg they might have a best angle of 160/200 degrees where a square sail might have best angle 180 degrees, but where the square sail achieves say 10kn the lateen achieves only 8. So when people say that 'lateen sail vessels are faster than square upwind' they mean that they are not AS SLOW as that square sail would be into the wind - it does not mean that a lateen sail will be faster INTO the wind than a square sail would be WITH the wind (or the lateen sail for that matter).

The Xebec and i think quite a few ships seem to violate this. As soon as the words 'good upwind' are mentioned, the vessels seem to transform into magical performance where they sail almost as fast as a square sail downwind, twice as fast perpendicular and, on occasion, faster than the wind INTO the wind. What should ACTUALLY be happening is that a Xebec should be slow compared to a good square sailer, but it should retain much more of that performance into the wind where the square sailer will stall. 'Good upwind' will thus mean that a xebec that is otherwise doing 8kn (eg) where a corvette giving chase is doing 10 (just examples here) will still manage 3 knots at 20 degrees while the corvette's sails stall - and thus will maintain a windward advantage from a corvette that must tack at, say 40 degrees yet only manage 5 knots (example) - the further from 180 degrees the corvette heads, the more the xebec closes and then reverses and extends the speed disadvantage it suffer; and because the wind is unlikely to be coming from 180 degrees, the point at which the xebec is actually quicker is likely to be so large that the xebec is actually at an advantage tactically; lets say the xebec is quicker between 250 and 110 degrees, thats 220 degrees where it has an advantage, versus 140 where the corvette does - in other words, the xebec wins geometrically - it takes a shorter path at a slower speed against a corvette with higher speed but longer paths, or slower speed at the same path, such that it gains a tactical advantage.

What seems instead to have been done with some of these ships is that they were assumed to be VERY FAST, not just FASTER, into the wind, and consequently were given speeds as fast as a corvette downwind, but at almost ANY angle - whether heading at 20 degrees from the wind or 180, that xebec is going at near its top speed. Thats not how it should work!

Im playing in realistic mode - I most definitely cannot sail into the wind and you know youre on realistic when more often than not youre plodding along at 3.5 knots heading downwind of a wind of 9 kn :cheeky I totally hear you on the tacking like crazy, although i always roll up my sails before heading into the wind to prevent drifting backward. However, thats a pain im happy to accept because thats sailing, and it makes the situations you get into (especially combat) that much more interesting (or boring, depending on preference). Thats probably why im so annoyed that a Xebec is going faster than the wind INTO that wind - im playing realistic for a reason damnit!

Upgrades wise I am reserving judgement - it could be that a higher top speed is achieved, but in a lesser wind the ship performs only slightly better, or some other factor i havent accounted for. The sailing here is quite complicated - maybe ill test the effect of buying upgrades a little later.

EDIT: Try this fun little 'online sailing simulator' to see what i mean. Again, im no nautical expert at all, but notice how the best speed is achieved somewhere between directly downwind or perpendicular to the wind (ie 90-270 degrees) - when you start heading INTO the wind - ie less than 90 degrees off where its coming from (271-89 degrees if its coming from 0) you very slowly at first, but surely, begin to lose speed - at first its only .2 knots or so, but when you hit 30 degrees or so you start to rapidly lose top speed. Importantly, you never beat the top speed that you achieved between 90-270 degrees. I think this is a physical certainty that could be proven because when you start heading into the wind the force acting on the sail also starts slowing you down and cancelling itself out. However, again im no expert and i couldnt tell you why the best speed is not achieved at 180 degrees
http://www.thepirateking.com/ships/sail_simulator.htm

EDIT 2: Matter of fact, the best point of sail seem to be exactly perpendicular to the wind, 90 or 270 degrees in that online sim - can anyone with nautical knowledge explain why the best speed in that sim is found at 90 degrees to the wind and whether thats always true? Are square vs lateen sails just a '91-269' vs '271-89' degrees tradeoff? Ie, if i choose square ill maintain more speed (but top speed will always be at 90/270 degrees) downwind (91-269 degrees), but if i choose lateen ill maintain more speed speed (but best is still 90/270) upwind (271-89) but lose out compared to square downwind.

Does anyone have any nautical/sailing introductory physics links? Id definitely like to know more about how this works
 
Ok nevermind! Turns out a bit more reading and a lot less typing would have done some good there.

Sailing is complicated! I just started reading into it and it turns out while sailing faster than the wind is impossible downwind because the force used is simple, sailing upwind actually uses sails to generate lift and CAN result in a ship sailing faster than wind speed! Now i have no idea if or how ancient mariners could have done that, and so a Xebec that goes 22 kn into a 20kn wind still seems BS to me. But the concept is sound it seems!
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/sailing.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_sail

Course, this leaves more questions than answers. Apparently some ships are quicker broad reach than beam reach - but can close reach be faster than broad reach?


All in all sailing is complex stuff, and im not qualified to say whether a ship doing 22 knots into a 20 knot wind is wrong. But surely a Xebec from the age of sail would not have the streamlined hull necessary to reach such speeds?
 
Note that simulator works on only one set of sails. Proves why cutter is so excellent ship.
Situations you are describing arent common, so they're not game mistakes, they're probably just bugs.
I have patch 5 and installed Christmas Ship Pack on top of that. All ships I've seen behaved properly. Especially theese not fullrigged. Mentioned xebex was agile and cut water swiftly with wind from side, but lost speed when sailed with wind.
Even squarerigged ships dont get their top speed with wind directly on rear.
Basically after spending some time goofing around with ships I realised how excellent work Willemstad Builders made adjusting performance.
I never seen ships sail directly into the wind or faster than wind.

Oh, and one more thing - could you say what are your ship stats? (just want to check something ;) )

Thanks for the second link. Cool page :cheers
 
I enjoyed the read. :mm

So you are already on realistic mode. That ship had to be bugged. I used to get ships like that fairly often, but it has been 8 months or so since the last one. You might want to read this thread. http://forum.piratesahoy.net/topic/15161-willemstad-builders-trials/page__view__findpost__p__353594__hl__%2Bwillemstad+%2Bbuilders+%2Btrials__fromsearch__1

I played in realistic mode for a few hours last night and the battles were completely different. Instead of close range knife fights the ships got scattered all over the ocean and boarding battles became rare. Having a spyglass that gave no information at all at any setting was just plain wrong. The ships don't show damage so there is no way to know when to board, so I ended up just sinking them.
 
Note that simulator works on only one set of sails. Proves why cutter is so excellent ship.
Situations you are describing arent common, so they're not game mistakes, they're probably just bugs.
I have patch 5 and installed Christmas Ship Pack on top of that. All ships I've seen behaved properly. Especially theese not fullrigged. Mentioned xebex was agile and cut water swiftly with wind from side, but lost speed when sailed with wind.
Even squarerigged ships dont get their top speed with wind directly on rear.
Basically after spending some time goofing around with ships I realised how excellent work Willemstad Builders made adjusting performance.
I never seen ships sail directly into the wind or faster than wind.

Oh, and one more thing - could you say what are your ship stats? (just want to check something ;) )

Thanks for the second link. Cool page :cheers

Oh i definitely agree, I think the work done on sailing in New Horizons is absolutely spectacular - i have never been so engrossed and seen such a variety in the ways ships can react to wind, I love the work that was done in this area! And for the most part most ships act in very convincing ways.

I will load up an earlier savegame and try and find that Xebec, but i think it was just bugged. I bought another Xebec recently, and while the performance is very strong all round, perhaps a little too strong, it doesnt go faster than the wind. That earlier xebec seems to have been bugged, but mind you, it had the staysails upgrade, which ive heard others complain about as providing too large an improvement. I will try upgrading this xebec too and see how it goes.

I enjoyed the read. :mm

So you are already on realistic mode. That ship had to be bugged. I used to get ships like that fairly often, but it has been 8 months or so since the last one. You might want to read this thread. http://forum.piratesahoy.net/topic/15161-willemstad-builders-trials/page__view__findpost__p__353594__hl__%2Bwillemstad+%2Bbuilders+%2Btrials__fromsearch__1

I played in realistic mode for a few hours last night and the battles were completely different. Instead of close range knife fights the ships got scattered all over the ocean and boarding battles became rare. Having a spyglass that gave no information at all at any setting was just plain wrong. The ships don't show damage so there is no way to know when to board, so I ended up just sinking them.

Thanks for the link, i think that Xebec must have been bugged. Perhaps its to do with the stay sails upgrade, i will try it on my new xebec and see how it goes.

I must admit that while im very happy with the battles in realistic mode as a whole, and ive learned to judge how much damage i have inflicted on enemy ships without the use of the spyglass, it would be nice if the spyglass showed a little more information and the AI didnt sail into the wind. The AI's tendency to flounder because it faces directly into the wind is the major achilles heel of POTC combat, and i really wish something could be done about this. Perhaps its possible to mod the AI to make it wind aware?

Im also of the opinion that boarding can be a little too easy sometimes. I have me and my officers equipped with the best equipment and it means that we cut down hoards in boarding, single handedly, to the point where from a ship with 33 crew i can quite easily board frigates with 400 crew. Although the enemy gets boosts to health and number when you are outnumbered, its just a matter of time when you have the best guns, gold armor and swords. i think they need better equipment
 
Well, it turns out the ship wasnt bugged. I was able to fairly easily reproduce the problem with the new Xebec by installing all the upgrades.

Heres a shot of the new Xebec sailing faster than the wind. In a weaker wind of 12kn it didnt go faster than the wind, but it did manage 8kn+ anywhere from 30-330 degrees.

Here are its stats (upgraded):


Im going to take a guess and say this ISNT how real Xebecs sailed. Ill post up comparisons with the stock Xebec a bit later but its stats were speed ~13 and maneuver around 102, and from a 21kn wind it would do ~9kn downwind, ~10.5kn in close to broad reach. Needless to say, thats nowhere near the performance of the upgraded Xebec (although its still very nimble, perhaps too nimble). A fully upgraded trade brig, by comparison, in that same 21kn wind, would do about 11kn downwind (its rated speed is 14.5) but running at close to broad reach it would do about 6kn. Now a corvette is quicker (Even unupgraded) and will trade blows with the Xebec - downwind the corvette might do 13kn, a lot better than 9kn, but close to broad reach it might do 7-8kn while the xebec is doing 10.5kn. Perhaps thats realistic, perhaps the Xebec (unupgraded) is still a bit too good there.

What is probably beyond doubt, however, is that upgraded or not, corvette nor trade brig will be able to match that upgraded Xebec. The ability to run faster than the wind close to broad reach and maybe 80% wind speed downwind is pretty difficult to match.

I couldnt say why upgrading seems to benefit the Xebec so much over the trade brig or corvette, but It doesnt look like the upgrades mod was balanced with the ship sailing rebalance in mind. I would say that unless someone can point to this behaviour being realistic, if you want realistic sailing with ships like Xebecs you cannot, unfortunately, upgrade them.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention - as you can see from those screenshots, that upgraded Xebec is outdoing its rated top speed. In my experience (from the other Xebec i used to have) this just gets worse as wind speeds pick up. I remember doing 22kn from a 20kn wind - on a Xebec rated for 13 kn. The way that thing was bobbing up and down in the water, i thought in reality the hull wouldnt take the pressure, let alone be hydrodynamically clean enough to reach that speed in the first place.

I like to play other sims too, including the Silent Hunter series, and the much cleaner hulls of those submarines are loathe to reach 20kn surfaced - on DIESEL. The more hydrodynamically clean ones, like the type XXI, do manage 17kn or more underwater and modern subs can do 40kn (although 'official' disclosed speed is only listed as '30kn+') underwater - but on the surface these subs are actually slower, and do about 17kn. Even the quicker fleet boats, like the Balao, managed maybe 21kn on the surface (and were very slow underwater as a result). In terms of surface vessels, destroyers/warships do manage 30kn but 21kn is considered very fast for any trade vessel. Lusitania could do 25, Queen Mary and Titanic 30kn. More commonly, trade ships like the Victory ships only managed 15-17kn.This is all on modern propulsion systems.

But why not look at the best of the sail ships instead - the tea clippers. Have a look at this;
Judged by any test, the American clippers were supreme. Donald McKay's Sovereign of the Seas reported the highest speed ever achieved by a sailing ship - 22 knots (41 km/h), made while running her easting down to Australia in 1854.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper

Ok im not sure if thats ALL time record, as modern race boats might match that (nautical experts?) but still, 22kn as a record tells us a lot about the prospect of a much smaller, wooden Xebec made 150 years earlier reaching that speed (as i have seen the upgraded xebec do). And nowhere does it say that clipper could sail faster than the wind either

To see a wooden hulled Xebec do 21kn seems just plain wrong to me. Even the 10-14kn you can commonly achieve seems a bit high, but at least thats in the ballpark.
 
Staysails on a xebec? I have never done that. With other ships they improve speed into the wind and turning. I use them mainly on fluyts and pinnaces to get them to turn better. Perhaps they were never intended to be used on a xebec.

The AI have been discussed by the coders but no one has found the cure yet.

That goes for combat in general. The game starts off very hard with it only taking 1-2 sword strokes to kill you. Then as you get stronger and acquire better weapons things level out. By level 20 you are invincible and it gets boring. I'm liking the Assassin quest because it seems to take longer to get better, making it more interesting. Overall, the player gets too good too fast. I also think the player advances in rank too fast. By the time one gets the reward ships they are not needed and often just get sold.
 
On the topic of staysails on a Xebec - maybe its introducing divide by zero errors or something thats causing excessive performance. Its a bit silly to have stay sail on a Xebec in the first place (but you cant avoid the issue because AI ships randomly, and quite often, get them), so maybe the solution is easy - disable the upgrade for Xebecs altogether. Matter of fact, maybe certain upgrades should be disabled on certain kinds of ships to begin with (eg how do you get a 'flush deck' frigate?)

On fast leveling; true, and thats not even mentioning one of the most important changes - much as i love them (believe me, boy do i love them!) the loot you get from dead bodies, and how much its worth, is a steadier source of income than smuggling (which is also too easy btw - what the heck happened to having to fight coastguard? Now i just kill 5 officers, for no rep loss, and thats it, im home free?). You very quickly find some pretty damn good equipment (although as a whole the equipment is quite balanced). So melee wise, you rapidly reach a point where you and your officers never lose (i am at level 14 atm with some very good officers, we steamroll everything!)

Yet when it comes to command/sail skill, it caps out at too low (cant go beyond rank 3 ships?!) and levels sooo slowly - if i didnt have items, i would have command of 2, sail 4 (despite directsailing everywhere) and luck 2 - these skills are near impossible to raise. Its a bit bizarre to see these uber and quick leveling characters which are amazing in melee yet cannot for the life of them command a warship (ok, you use those ships without much penalty anyway, but the point remains).

Because of this its also easy to capture ships (and often they surrender and dont fight back anyway, might have to disable surrender again) since you can easily beat the crew or only have to fight the captain if they surrender and then BANG BANG BANG hes dead (or BANG slash slash). He doesnt even have his crew or officers around or on deck at the time, what a fool (I know youve surrendered, but dueling captains to determine the fate of the ship, crew be damned, seems a little old timer). So generally getting any ship you get a fancy for is child's play. Course, the nation might hate you, but thats quickly and easily remedied for 50,000-200,000 (pocket change much of the time).

And even if you find boarding exceptionally difficult to pull off, a smuggling run or two (though trade runs are not feasible early on) later you enough cash for a ship which can carry 2000 or so cargo, and that ought to get you started pretty quickly on cash (smuggling), melee (fighting the coastguard officers) and commerce (selling and buying the goods to smuggle). If the coastguard ships were just left in place, this would no longer be feasible (too high a rep loss each time you want to smuggle, and possible death) and making money would be harder early on, but sooner or later youd get to the easy money stage anyway.

All in all i still love these changes and looting bodies, but frankly its easier to equip yourself and your officers and get loot up to the wazoo than stock POTC ever was.


Still a great mod though, and very enjoyable regardless. Maybe next time i just wont loot bodies xD: Too bad about AI though - is it even moddable? A LOT of improvement has been made on how/when it chooses to engage you, I love the way it runs away when outmatched and attacks when it is stronger, but having it point its broadsides more often and not sail into the wind would be a godsend


EDIT: Also, on the issue of price levels, heres a few useful metrics;
The Guinea, as we know, was a gold coin minted in England between 1663 and 1813. Its price was set at 20 and later 21 shillings, which was equal to 1 pound at the time, although inflation in the price of gold at times saw it worth 30 shillings (1.5 pounds). Being that the currency ingame is gold coins, it might be useful (disregarding the variety of currencies of the time) to think of the ingame currency as being in guineas. So if we can find the cost of a ship in that period in pounds, by extrapolation we can assume that would have been its price in guineas also (or at maximum we need to times its price by 1.5 times to get price in guineas)

So how much did ships cost? Well, heres a few interesting examples;
HMS Britannia (1762) - 100 gun first rate - cost = 45,844 pounds for building and fitting. So about 45,000 gold coins.

HMS Resolution (1771) - Royal Navy sloop and Captain Cook's preferred ship - started life as Marquis of Granby (collier) but was purchased by Royal Navy for cost = 4,151 pounds. So about 4000 gold.

Cost of REFIT of HMS Resolution (1771) because Mr Joseph Banks needed an additional upper deck and raised poop deck (and refused to sail in 'adverse conditions' when these were removed due to resulting poor sea keeping) = 10,080 pounds PLUS 882 pounds to REMOVE them again (what an idiot some of these people were) - so about 10,000 gold for major extensions on a ship and 800 gold to remove superstructure.

HMS Bounty (1784) - three masted cargo ship Bethia bought by the Royal Navy and famous for mutiny - cost of purchase by Royal Navy = 2,600 pounds - so about 2500 gold.

HMS Victory (1765) - very famous 1st rate - although delayed and taking quite a long time, eventually launched for cost = 63,176 pounds - so about 63000 gold.

Extensive repair of HMS Victory in 1800 after she was being considered for conversion into a hospital ship - originally estimated at 23,500 pounds for repairs but after defects were found turned into an extensive reconstruction for 70,933 pounds. These are massive repair bills! 23000 gold for a standard repair of a 1st rate, but a whopping 70000 gold for a reconstruction. Basically, ingame, the repair costs are the only prices that are about right! To reconstruct victory cost more than it did to build her in the first place.

This is definitely one of the things ingame that most contributes to an abundance of money for the player - repairs are very cheap when compared to the cost of a ship or trading/looting income. If light repairs - say for a ship with 70% hull (NOT sail) integrity - cost 1/3 of the cost of the ship, and serious reconstructions - say for ships which went below 50% hull - cost close to the cost of a ship, many players would find that many ships they captured were not worth keeping, unless they were otherwise hard to obtain (eg corvettes, frigates, galleons of war etc) - and then they would have to pay for the privilege.


This is mainly trivia since changing nominal variables is really not important in the scheme of things. However, its obvious that when a 100 gun first rate cost 45000 guineas in reality, paying millions of gold ingame is too high (and making millions is also).

Its also interesting, however, to note that building a first rate ship of the line only cost ten times as much as it did to purchase a second hand sloop (Resolution), and just 4 times as much as was wasted by Joseph Banks in his pursuit of luxury. These ships were also bought second hand, not built new. Taken altogether, the cost of buying these two second hand ships and refitting the resolution was about 40% of the cost of the Britannia.

So there ya go!
 
You have brought up a lot of topics. Where to start?
Xebecs. Here are my current fleet and their stats in realistic mode. Notice that they aren't even close to your xebec. Since upgrading that ship seems to give it unrealistic performance, perhaps you should consider not upgrading it. I use the upgrades to balance my fleet so they all have about the same speed, with my ship being the slowest. The XebecAS and sometimes the Grand Schooner are the only xebecs I sail, so was unaware of their performance. You want a neat ship? Get a Fragata Latina and go easy on the upgrades. :luv

Command skill topping out at 3 is a known bug.

I set surrender to .03-4 so they don't surrender until the ship is about to sink.

Dueling was common back then. A sword was part of every mans wardrobe. :ixi Old timer indeed. I read about one battle where an English frigate met 2 French ships. One French ship layed off so that there was a one on one battle until the first French ship called for help. In the end all three ships sailed away heavily damaged.

About pricing. I hope that the pricing is internally consistent in potC if not historically correct.

About smuggling, I'm lazy. I get the commerce abilities and then trusted lad so I can sell contraband in the comfort of the merchant's store. :j2
 
So how much did ships cost? Well, heres a few interesting examples;
HMS Britannia (1762) - 100 gun first rate - cost = 45,844 pounds for building and fitting. So about 45,000 gold coins.

HMS Resolution (1771) - Royal Navy sloop and Captain Cook's preferred ship - started life as Marquis of Granby (collier) but was purchased by Royal Navy for cost = 4,151 pounds. So about 4000 gold.

Cost of REFIT of HMS Resolution (1771) because Mr Joseph Banks needed an additional upper deck and raised poop deck (and refused to sail in 'adverse conditions' when these were removed due to resulting poor sea keeping) = 10,080 pounds PLUS 882 pounds to REMOVE them again (what an idiot some of these people were) - so about 10,000 gold for major extensions on a ship and 800 gold to remove superstructure.

HMS Bounty (1784) - three masted cargo ship Bethia bought by the Royal Navy and famous for mutiny - cost of purchase by Royal Navy = 2,600 pounds - so about 2500 gold.

HMS Victory (1765) - very famous 1st rate - although delayed and taking quite a long time, eventually launched for cost = 63,176 pounds - so about 63000 gold.

Extensive repair of HMS Victory in 1800 after she was being considered for conversion into a hospital ship - originally estimated at 23,500 pounds for repairs but after defects were found turned into an extensive reconstruction for 70,933 pounds. These are massive repair bills! 23000 gold for a standard repair of a 1st rate, but a whopping 70000 gold for a reconstruction. Basically, ingame, the repair costs are the only prices that are about right! To reconstruct victory cost more than it did to build her in the first place.
WHAT!? Those prices are minuscule compared to the in-game ones! :shock
Blimey, that would certainly make things a little too easy if we set prices to truly be realistic! We'd have to totally redo the game's economy to balance it out! :wacko:
And the ironic thing is, the 'Ship Mod' stats balancing work by Oberleutnant, which I 'inherited' a while ago, outlines a system whereby the ships have higher prices than they currently do (albeit a well-thought out system).
So it's easy to see why we haven't touched the pricing for a while. Ugh, I hate economic issues. :j3
 
The ships would cost more than they do now? :shoot: Whatever it takes to make the game less easy after level 12 or so. :whipa

When players have $50 million in the bank, it is waaaaaaay too easy. :eek:k
 
It would be nice to have realistic price levels ingame (that of course means what you sell isnt worth nearly as much either!), but thats about it. Its not worth the trouble to rebalance all the prices ingame (a massive task). Perhaps if at some point someone decides that its too easy to make money though, then they might try to reflect a realistic price level. Otherwise, just pretend gold is a lot more common :)

Repair bills should go up drastically though. Would help sink some of that excess cash (im not quite at 50 million in the bank, but with 2 million and three large galleons at your disposal you can smuggle for a million's worth or more at a time and you can afford anything you desire - especially if you go easy on the upgrades which are arguably too expensive for what they give)

I actually have surrender set at 0.02 and even then i am considering dropping that to 0.01. The reason being that ive had a war galleon surrender to my trade brig - even though i was avoiding it like the plague - because it crashed against a cliff (lol). While thats entertaining, its so easy to take a surrendered ship that I prefer they dont surrender unless they REALLY have no choice.

On swords and dueling, youre right of course but its so hard to balance being able to loot bodies because we kill many more people than is realistic. Hundreds upon hundreds die by your sword, where in reality a REALLY bad man (apart from battles) might have killed a couple of dozen. Again, i love to loot - but it makes me too rich for my own good! Still, id prefer having to spend more money - on repairs for instance - and making less from selling goods and ships, than losing the ability to loot.

Same for surrender. Yes its realistic that when a ship has struck colours the enemy may take possession. But ingame, it only takes one very good ship to surrender early or due to its own stupidity (crashing into cliffs totally unconnected to you) and the player gets access to ta supership they would otherwise have to work very hard for. This probably isnt that big an issue though

On ships and not upgrading, ill definitely take your advice and just leave some of these ships alone. My main concern isnt about my own ship, however, but the ones i encounter in the hands of the AI. I dont want Xebecs doing 22kn in a 20kn wind to come racing from nowhere every time i sail a trade brig. I want some semblance of reality there, and so perhaps the best solution, if a ship benefits TOO much from upgrades (it seems to copper plating, flush deck, cotton and taller sails that all cause the issue on the xebec, each making it worse) then it simply shouldnt be upgradeable. Fully upgrading a trade brig, i cant say its significantly better than when i started. Xebec on the other hand sees a huge benefit. Maybe the speed upgrades need to provide less benefit to faster ships.

As for command skill, youre right that its a bug but the point remains that you gain leadership, luck and sailing ranks too slowly ingame.
 
Hmm, this is strange. My game seems to use the arcade stats in Ships_init.c in actual sailing. I am referring to these settings;

if (!bArcadeMode){
refShip.SpeedRate = 10.0;
refShip.TurnRate = 95;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationX = 4; refShip.InertiaBrakingX = 0.4;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationY = 3; refShip.InertiaBrakingY = 0.5;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationZ = 2.5; refShip.InertiaBrakingZ = 2.0;
}else{
refShip.SpeedRate = 15.3;
refShip.TurnRate = 55;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationX = 0.2; refShip.InertiaBrakingX = 2.0;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationY = 10; refShip.InertiaBrakingY = 6;
refShip.InertiaAccelerationZ = 4.0; refShip.InertiaBrakingZ = 3.0;

Ive been able to get many ships to sail 18kn+ and faster than the wind, yet i sail backwards if facing into the wind. Most recently I got a sloop2 from which i have taken these settings to go faster than the wind and 19 kn at STOCK, and 28 knots upgraded!

Is this normal or is there something wrong with my game? Most ships, like Caravels, Galleons, Frigates etc are fine but when it comes to sloops, xebecs, cutters and luggers, if they arent broken stock, they are once you upgrade
 
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