Thoughts on the newest Build Mod

[ronlosey]

You say the great modders have left? From the ammount of activity going on here, I would say the torch has been passed to good hands. You guys seem to have a solid grasp of the computer part of this. I've heard enough already to get that part.

The parts that are missing seem to be planning and research. If you guys can debug some of the stuff you've been debugging, all you really need to write a good mod is a clear target.

As for conflicting with previous mods, or differences of opinions - if too many changes are made and/or if they conflict, it may be necessary to make different versions. Build 13 could come in both "fantasy" and "realistic" versions. Call one the "Real world Build #1". It can still use 90% of the same stuff, but with all the numbers tweaked. If you can get it debugged, make it a toggle in the Buildsettings file. (Your suggestion from the ammo mod.) If not, seperate files. That would surely not hurt. I mean, if something is in the way, go around it. Accomidate everyone. Mods from one could still fuel changes in the other, and twice the projects generate twice the hype - making it more likely to get people with dissimilar objectives involved.

Ron


<!--quoteo(post=143418:date=Mar 26 2006, 11:54 PM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 26 2006, 11:54 PM) [snapback]143418[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Im one of those aiming for realism, that was the whole idea for my cannon FX mod, to create a more life like realistic experience when firing the guns. i wish i could find a way to actually attach light to the cannon fire
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I like the cannon mod.

I tend to worry more about statistical accuracy than "experience". Special effects are cool, but they would not be my first concern. I would think more about how many hits a ship can take, or what kinds of ammo were really in use.

I actually had not noticed that the cannon fire did not really produce any light.

Ron

 

[Jack Rackham]

Lights to cannon fire: In RESOURCE/INI/particles there are a lot of graphic effects, which may be tweaked, maybe to a "light" effect. Example:

CreateParticleSystem("stars" , u, v+1, w, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, sti(20) );

Or is the problem where to start the animation?
Or how to attach graphic effects to a certain locator, that´s something I really want to know more about.

 

[Merciless Mark]

<!--quoteo(post=143424:date=Mar 26 2006, 06:18 PM:name=Jack Rackham)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Rackham @ Mar 26 2006, 06:18 PM) [snapback]143424[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Lights to cannon fire: In RESOURCE/INI/particles there are a lot of graphic effects, which may be tweaked, maybe to a "light" effect. Example:

CreateParticleSystem("stars" , u, v+1, w, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, sti(20) );

Or is the problem where to start the animation?
Or how to attach graphic effects to a certain locator, that´s something I really want to know more about.
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hahaha no Jack, that was the very first thing i did.... well second actually, and its evolved to the point of as authentically as possible trying to reproduce the fire burst from the cannons, im talking about light, so that the hull actually lights up.

<!--quoteo(post=143419:date=Mar 26 2006, 06:06 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Mar 26 2006, 06:06 PM) [snapback]143419[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I like the cannon mod.

I tend to worry more about statistical accuracy than "experience". Special effects are cool, but they would not be my first concern. I would think more about how many hits a ship can take, or what kinds of ammo were really in use.

I actually had not noticed that the cannon fire did not really produce any light.

Ron
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The hits seems to be very difficult, to be honest, its all wrong for realism, its based on hull integrity percentage. whereas in reality it was taking in water that would ultimatley cause a ship to sink, but in order for that to happen cannon hits would have to take below the waterline, In reality few battles ended with sinking the enemy ship, its not a wonder why, most of the crew tended to be dead before the ship actually sank, cannon hits create small entry holes, but cause a deadly hail of wood splinters when they come trough.

We already have gotten somewhere thou, ships surrender alot when you inflict heavy damage, and cannons can be destroyed as well as masts, i beleive the next step is to figure out a way if possible to make the system register hits below the water line and mod so the ship takes in water.

 

[ronlosey]

I think I said that earlier. Ships sink too easily, and don't burn like wood either. The disabled cannons and masts are good mods, and the surrender mod is great, but there is more to be done if we want realism. It will require tweaking a lot of things.

Are you good at this stuff? If you can write the code, I will start working on a ship damage formula. I can probably come up with a realistic model, but I can't put it into the computer myself.

Ron

 

[Merciless Mark]

unfortunatley im not very good at code at all, at least the kind used in PoTC. im mostly an idea person.

 

[ronlosey]

<!--quoteo(post=143469:date=Mar 27 2006, 08:04 AM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 27 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]143469[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
unfortunatley im not very good at code at all, at least the kind used in PoTC. im mostly an idea person.
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Considering the cannon mod, I somehow doubt that. You seem to generate this code rather freely. I'll put some of a formula together, and you (and anyone else who has energy) can take a crack at implementing it, and we'll see what happens.

Ron

 

[Merciless Mark]

<!--quoteo(post=143471:date=Mar 27 2006, 02:12 AM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Mar 27 2006, 02:12 AM) [snapback]143471[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
<!--quoteo(post=143469:date=Mar 27 2006, 08:04 AM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 27 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]143469[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
unfortunatley im not very good at code at all, at least the kind used in PoTC. im mostly an idea person.
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Considering the cannon mod, I somehow doubt that. You seem to generate this code rather freely. I'll put some of a formula together, and you (and anyone else who has energy) can take a crack at implementing it, and we'll see what happens.

Ron
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Beleive it or not, but the cannon FX mod isnt a matter of knowing code, its actually a math matter, finding the right balance between expansion, speed, duration, number of particles and ect to create a conving effect. In that mod i already have defined perameters, all i need to do is adjust them wich btw is a time consuming task.

 

[ronlosey]

Math is good. This is basically a statistical problem anyway.

---------------------------

Run these numbers:

- Reduce hull damage on all shot types to about 10% of their current number, but keep crew and rig damage the same.

-Tweak the disabled cannons number so it comes out about half as likely as right now.

-Set a possibility of mast damage from hull hits, to represent collapse of the decks that hold them up. Slightly increase probability of masts being disabled. That was the first thing that got blown off, historically.

*These changes should make ships that can be blasted to splinters and still not sink. Almost every crew would surrender before actually sinking. You, too, could be utterly disabled (all masts and every gun down) much more easily than sunk.

Fire changes:

-the "firedrill" in its current form has to go. It is absurd and arcade. (A necessary evil at the time, perhaps, but not in the spirit of these changes at all.)

-Lower hull damage from fire, increase crew damage. Fire kills and disables people easily. Fire takes hours to destroy 10,000 pounds of waterlogged oak.

-Give fire a probability of going out, based on crew number and defense skill. (We may want to modify this later, but it's a good place to start.) A good crew should be able to deal with a small fire easily. A below-minimum crew with poor skills has no chance of fighting fire. Fire does not, normally, just burn for a period of time and then die. For an opening statistic, say 100% crew times Defense skill 10 = 10% chance of killing one fire every five seconds. Make it a simple multiple - if defense skill was 5 or crew at 50%, chance is only 5%. Defense skill one and 10% crew = 0.1%, and the only thing that will stop that fire is the waterline.

-Each fire should reduce crew effectiveness at doing anything else by about 20% - longer load times, worse sailing properties, etc. - to represent the difficulty of both sailing and fighting fire at the same time. Therefore, five fires would render the ship quite helpless until (if) they could be controlled.

-Give fire a probability of creating more fire, like about 1% per five seconds per fire. That way, an uncontrolled fire grows exponentially. Give it a chance to spread to rigging - burning sails were actually one of the greatest dangers - where it would destroy rigging VERY fast. (Do not give fire the chance to START on rigging, unless you're talking about explosive rounds.) Also when rigging reaches zero, those fires should burn out. That also means more than ten fires would be quite statistically impossible to stop, even with perfect firefighting capabilities - fire can get completely out of control.


-Give fire the chance of creating secondary explosions (also about 1% per five seconds) which would do damage to all ship systems. Make the size of these explosions somewhat random.

-If a ship has all of the crew killed by fire, count it as a kill. Flag it as neutral, but cannot be boarded. (Boarding a burning ship would be suicide.) Leave the burning neutral ship sitting in the water as a navigation hazzard, where it could burn for hours.


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See what that does. Post a copy so I can play with it too.

Ron

 

[ronlosey]

found another bug:

Dialogue options on the "construct a building" sequence are all screwed up. Seems to be offset - all the words are there, but run together so that you get the wrong fragments of words.

Newest update DID fix the glitch with Danielle's dialogue in the tavern, however.

Ron

 

[ronlosey]

And a thought on cannons:

I was reading through the FAQ on the realistic cannon mod, and noticed a couple of things.

One: Carronades did not appear until the late 1700's. (They were named for Carron arms foundry, who made them.) The British Navy began using the term "long gun" to refer to any conventional cannon that was not one of these new carbines. Low velocity guns of the 1600's were called Mortars, and they came in very large sizes but fired with a high arc. This gave them long range, but greatly limited their effectiveness against ships. (It's hard to hit a ship if you are dropping arty almost straight down on them. Hull penetration was not great either.) The other major designs were conventional cannon and "culverines" - long-barrel weapons firing smaller but higher-velocity shot. The French really liked their culverines, especially for attacking sail or masts at relatively long ranges. (High velocity rounds are more accurate, and the light shot weight might limit damage to hull, but against sails it didn't make much difference.)

Two: Heated shot did not appear until much later (early 1800's). Bombs for ship cannon between 1600 and 1800 were wood kegs (not iron case, like the original game drew - those did not appear in any number until the 1820's) filled with powder. They were good at starting fires and creating general panic, but inaccurate and short ranged. Other weapons using the same basic design also added flammable liquids or semi-solids (greek fire, gunpowder and tar, raw petroleum). If we get a good fire mod, where fire actually acts like fire, we will want to add these back into the game. (Hand grenades of the period were also usually clay jars, not iron case - based on the Arabic naptha grenades dating back to the Crusades, which were Molitov cocktails for all intents and purposes. Pottery made a good fragmentation grenade.) Fire-based weapons were good close-range shot, if you had time to shoot and then wait for your enemy to burn - but most people didn't have time to play with them. If you got close, it was usually grapeshot and boarding parties - not hit and run. If we model these realistic, I imagine few players would care to mess with them, unless they were using mortars (above) - where the larger shot size could let you drop an entire powder keg on somebody. (You really might sink a ship if you managed to hit it with something like that.)

Three: British Navy used "gunshot" to refer to 1000 yards. Musket shot was 200 yards, and pistol shot 30 yards. That was the range where they expected to see fire exchanged. Test fires of cannons from the period indicate they could be quite effective out to 2000 yards. Grapeshot could still penetrate 30 inches or more of oak at 300 yards - a point well recorded from the Napoleonic Wars. We may be underestimating the range of these guns. Now, hitting anything with them at that range is another story

Just more thoughts.
Ron

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I said <i>most</i> good modders have left us. Thankfully, CCC is still left. And we have several new good modders as well. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen1.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="icon_mrgreen1.gif" />

What modpack version are you using at the moment? The 5 March release? I think the messed up building dialog has been fixed in later releases. However, both the 18 March and 25 March versions have some major troubles that still need fixing. I'd recommend sticking to the 5 March release and just not minding that particular bug.

I have not read everything you've written, but your comments have made me think. You made me think so much that I couldn't sleep for HOURS yesterday! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="piratesing.gif" />
Anyway: I have come up with several ideas that should both involve the player more into the game world and change the micro-management part more into macro-management. I am also thinking that it might indeed be time to define a common goal with our modding work and then try to work together to pursue that goal. I will make a seperate thread on this.

BTW: You say you like the cannon explosion and surrendring on sea mods. Unfortunately, the person who made these mods, the GREAT NATHAN KELL ( <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/bow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="bow.gif" /> ) has left us as well. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="sad.gif" />

 

[Admiral TeaRex]

i have an idea [BIG ONE THOUGH]; why not start with the last working post build mod [5 March release], and add the new things on slowly, like add one try it, add another, try it....
i know this will take a while, but it would probably be worth it, since at the moment, the Error.log seems to be acting up, not giving you anything, and some of us seem to be as lost as an African in the Alps! [no offence, i just mean that from my point of view, this doesn't seem to have happened before]
so, if we do this bit by bit, we would probably be able to find the bug.
but i still don't know what's been done to solve these problems, so it might be getting done in a quicker, better way than that.
any comments?
i just think a systematic search for this thing will get it removed quickly

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Don't worry; I'll fix it. I'll first try and fix what I <i>think</i> is causing the bug. If that doesn't work, I'll do exactly as you suggest. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

[Admiral TeaRex]

i hope so.
i love what has been done so far, and i would hate to see a problem like this cause people to lose faith in it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

 

[Pieter Boelen]

<!--quoteo(post=143552:date=Mar 27 2006, 04:28 PM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Mar 27 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]143552[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I have come up with several ideas that should both involve the player more into the game world and change the micro-management part more into macro-management. I am also thinking that it might indeed be time to define a common goal with our modding work and then try to work together to pursue that goal. I will make a seperate thread on this.
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Please read <a href="http://forum.piratesahoy.net/index.php?showtopic=7049&hl=" target="_blank">this</a> thread. I know I wrote up a VERY long post indeed, but I hope everybody will take the time to take note of some of the things I bring up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/doff.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="doff.gif" />

 

[Admiral TeaRex]

will do

 

[Capt. Daniel Wolf]

Realism is good, and dont really affect the good gameplay, just add more action. If we dont care about cannon realism at all, even that case, the last cannon mods, and the crushing masts, flames, sounds improves the games feeling.
So I think theres very little chance, that realism takes away the fun. And, its causes the serious players to come back playing POTC. Ron is really right in many things. Im SURE we need to focus on potc, and forget any other games... This is a potc modding community, no need to worry about AOP. ( as I said million times, its code is closed, and the system not mutch improved. )

Adding black powder to gunshots, and the idea about different food types also grabs my fantasy. But dont forget the rugs..... In every cannon shot, they did shot out a bunch of textil, used to separate the air between the ball and the powder. So, im sure its a good idea, adding a 'good' as: 'old rugs' or 'bad textile'. Used to patch the ships holes in repairs, and for the cannon shots. If we talk about realism, dont forget this also. I dont want to overcomplicate this, this is just a good that needs for a shot too, and can be used to patch holes also. However, its not needed to place as an ammo for handguns, THATS would complicate things, yes. no need for that.


Besides.... AN addition about the black powder smallarms.... (NOT FOR the game, just info!) The ammo pouch holded the balls, the barrel, or, some other pouch holded the powder, and the little black bag holded amounts of black powder, tightly wrapped in paper, or rug, just like the bullets in our days....
You just grabbed the wrapped paper, put close to the mouth of rifle/handgun ripped open, poured the powder inside, then put the empty paper/rug on top, stomped down with the rifle/gun stick, and AFTER that, putted in the ball, stomped a bit again.
Why did this way?
Because, filling the rifle/gun from a flask looks more cooler, but in the field, when you have 30 seconds to reload (some guys in napoleons army succesfully reloaded a rifle in this little time...) you cant count the powder....
Mutch easyer to hold 2 things, in your pockets: the metal balls, and the wrapped 'shots'.... The soldiers made this 'shots' themselves before the battle.
ANd they carried taht mutch ammunition, because they were 'self propelled' soldiers back then, they tried to cut back on the supplies: just carried food, and only the main root of the force carried additional ammo, footsoldiers carried their own for the campaign.
At least, in the Austrian monarchic army.

So, I think, at least the rug needed for the cannon to make it more realistic.... If we really plan to get this together about cannons, guns, ships, masts, damages, once and for all.

 

[ronlosey]

Realism can't create micro-management and tedium. I was saying earlier, it is reasonable to assume that buying cannon ammo would include all parts necessary. Trying to guess what kind of charges you would use in your cannons, and estimating powder usage from that, was a part of real life that I DON'T want to see, like having long conversations with each of 200 sailors to guess which ones you want to hire. The key parts of the cannon ammo idea are that you must buy and store ammunition, so both money and space on the ship must be allowed for such. Don't make it into a calculation project. (The 32lb guns use a 10lb 7oz powder charge for long range, or 6lb 2oz for normal range, times 200 rounds of round ball...) Just leave it at buying ammo and be done with it.

Also note that cannons use about a 10 pound charge per gun. My dad's .54 cal rifle uses a 110 grain charge, which is about 8 shots to the ounce of powder. In a word, you could carry off a powder horn full - about a pound of powder - from the ship's supply, and it would never show. They spill more than that during a reload and fire drill. That pound of powder would give you more than 100 rounds of musket fire, or twice that with pistols. Let's not manage powder by the teaspoon. It doesn't add to the action, and it doesn't add to realism.

If you really want realism, create some troops that would stand their ground and fight with muskets, like Redcoats fight. Force players to choose between gun battles and close quarters. Change weapon parameters to force players to select a course of action and see if it works.

The "crew on shore" mod was a good start, and the "rapid raid" mod of enemy troops showing up in squad strength. This was a good beginning for land battles - fights where 20 guys with muskets either trade fire or charge each other with bayonets. If weapons damage numbers were realistic (i.e. no matter how much experience you get, you still don't get tough enough to survive 20 hits from a cutlass), we could have a land combat simulator here.

For the building ideas, I think I have a plan - I'll put it into a new thread.

I described some numbers for a ship damage model. If someone wants to implement some of those, I'll try to test it as soon as possible.

Ron

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Just to make one thing very clear: I do not want to make this game such a realistic land fighting simulator that it gets disgusting. Personally, if I have to choose between "realistic" and "fun", it'll be the latter version for me. If somebody wants to make a realistic game out of this, I'll add the mod in with a toggle on it.

 

[Merciless Mark]

<!--quoteo(post=143738:date=Mar 28 2006, 04:14 PM:name=Pieter Boelen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pieter Boelen @ Mar 28 2006, 04:14 PM) [snapback]143738[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Just to make one thing very clear: I do not want to make this game such a realistic land fighting simulator that it gets disgusting. Personally, if I have to choose between "realistic" and "fun", it'll be the latter version for me. If somebody wants to make a realistic game out of this, I'll add the mod in with a toggle on it.
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I agree, there should be a balance between the two. i like it the way it is now actually, I find that only the real heavy ships like battleships and up usually end up sinking enemy ships, ships usually surrender right now long before they are near sinking, at least they do for me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />