• New Horizons on Maelstrom
    Maelstrom New Horizons


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Thoughts on the newest Build Mod

Ships that surrender long before they sink - that is an element of realism. Some of us have been encouraging more of that... that the numbers be tweaked more toward reality.

As for realism or "fun", I don't see an issue. "Fun" is more a question of game balance. Game balance is more decided by who, what, and how many opponents you get. Even if land combat was real enough to be annoying, it could be balanced out by either reducing the number or quality of attacks, or encouraging you to take 10 musket-armed crewmen before you went tromping off into the jungle.

However, I personally am less entertained by the unrealistic. I would find the combat sequences more "fun" if they involved tactical decisions of the type seen in real combat of the period. I like games that force me to think, and to think in a realistic way about the problem.

Ron
 
Dear Ron, as I said before, the things what I wrote about the use of smallarms is just INFO, because i did read horrible things about the use of pistols, muskets here, and I wanted to post some facts about.... So counting that info like I want to add some "how many powder needed here, and how to hold the pistol correctly" mod, is /at-least/ weird.... Please, dont read too fast....
I did wrote that I DONT WANT TO CHANGE anything about smallarms INGAME use, they are faar good now. Both serves realism and fun.

It seems that I need to wrote it down again....

so:

The ONLY thing I suggested to change, is to give a ship cargo goodie: RUGS. because they needed one for each -CANNON- shot.... Its the same like the new powder goodie YOU suggested...
One CANNON shot:
1 ball
1 rug
1 powder

Its simple enough, not?

Gives a LOT to realism, and dont change the game, and fun. And: the rug goodie also can be use with the planks&tools goodies in the suggested new quick repair mechanisms, which also means maximum 3-4 orders, and could be really fun to use them in a storm, or battle, trying to choose which one is needed now.

And THATS macro management, because those orders gonna sit in the main orders list of the sea view, like the quick repair do now, and its only 3-4 order, with proper crewmen yell's, and sounds, could be really good addition.

Again: Im a very big supporter of macro-management, just leave some of the enjoyable character conversations ingame, so dont kill the game's 'Onshore guy simulator... ' lol. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":))" border="0" alt="smile2.gif" />
Pieter: noone (I hope) want to kills this game's fun, realism can be taken seriously with the keeping of the fun also, if we dont add too complicated things. ANd Im really think, that the things I wrote above, are pretty simple, and add to the fun also.


And, about the refill your horn from the ship's cannon powder thing.... Yes, it would be real nice, to not spend money on smallarmns powder anymore....

But its more realistic NOW, why change it? BECAUSE:
beware JUST INFO:

Smallarms used WAY DIFFERENTLY fine powder than big cannons, with different % of sulfur, wood chalk etc.... That little amount of CANNON powder, you try to use in a handgun, properly prepared, may not even lit! The particles of the powder is too big, n' rough, need more amount, and more space to lit.

And using that mutch more finer pistol powder in cannons: that would be a big waste of money.

So, its a thing, that ALREADY more realistic, to

1.: buy balls, and gunpowder for your smallarms, as an ITEM type, (like now)

2.: and buy CARGO goodie CANNONpowder, and rugs, and balls for your cannons.
As you first suggested.

I hope we dont misunderstand posts anymore....

I do agree with the main ideas you said Ron, but at least let us add something too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":))" border="0" alt="smile2.gif" />

Thank you.

Best Wishes

The Wolf
 
Historical note:

None of the gunpowder of the 1690's was refined well enough to notice the difference. Extreme fine-grain powder used in the flashpans of flintlocks (to reduce misfires) did not make an appearance until the 1760's or 70's, where it was also used in the flashpans of the flintlock firing mechanisms on cannons. (The 1690's still fired cannon with a torch.) Even without that, most of the weapons were using a basic fine-grain black powder, and one was quite compatable with the other. The only guns that used coarse-grain powder were deliberately low-velocity weapons with huge bore, like 200-pound land-based mortars used to shell forts (usually using stone or lead balls) - as far as I know, none of those made an appearance in the Americas. (By 1800, earthwork forts had replaced stone, and rendered them mostly useless.) I've fired a few rounds of black powder (like thousands, ever since I was about six years old - it's a popular hobby where I came from). I've even seen a few rounds fired through replica (1860's models) six and nine-pound field guns (although they didn't let me touch them off). (I've even known some guys to use coarse-grain powder in Kentucky rifles - and they shoot fine.) They didn't start changing the formula based on type of weapon until after cartridge ammo and repeating weapons appeared in the 1860's, and that was to prevent fouling of moving parts and splitting brass shell casings. Gunpowder is pretty much gunpowder - it fires unless it's wet.

That aside, and getting back to game play:

Where are we going with this? Are we trying to make small arms and blades into a significant supply issue? If so, shouldn't we be more worried about stockpiling them for ship boardings than the one or two rounds that the officers fire? And if we're not trying to make a significant supply issue of them, then what does hunting for small-arms ammo accomplish?

Speaking of boarding parties and ammunition, a ship boarding where a large portion of the crew was out there fighting would be interesting. It would also make the point of supply on blades, small arms, and ammo. But that's another project, to go along with "realistic land battle simulator" - nobody is sure they want to get that realistic, and it's a lot of work.

But one problem at a time. My earlier question was about what people wanted to see. I'm all for mods on ground combat and boarding. I would even be in favor of a mod that managed small-arms ammo - if it looked something like planet Earth. Mods where dozens of musket-armed troops trade fire (on land, or during a boarding), and you get the bill for the ammo, would make sense. Mods where a hundred crewmen meet with blades in a ship boarding, and you have to collect and transport enough blades and pistols to keep them in business - that makes sense. Setups where 20 rounds of cannonball and 600 pounds of powder cost 10, but a teaspoon full of powder costs 14, and a #6 musket ball costs another 12 (and you have to hunt all over town for them - you could melt the gold and pour musket balls out of that for less money)... however, any musket fire the crew uses before boarding is free - something doesn't add. It just looks funny.

Also, mods where you have to buy shot, and wadding, and powder, and boards, and nails, and tar, and charcoal, and salt, and pepper, and... AAAAAGH! The point of buying ammo is so you have to 1. Pay to shoot, and 2. Store the stuff and haul it around. Same with repair materials. If you think the price of ammo is unbalanced, change it. Don't make people buy every single detail individually. Get some categories - "rations" to include food that can survive and be prepared at sea, "supplies" to include everything from tar to shovel handles to nails, and a few different classes of ammo (based on their type of shot - ball, chain, grape, whatever). Nobody is going to buy a bunch of powder and no wadding, unless they plan to bury a keg of it under the competition's store and light the fuse. So why add it? That's the micro-managing I was talking about. It's just button clicks without thought, or calculating things that should already be calculated.

I think the ammo idea has potential. I just think we need to go somewhere with it, instead of just "doing stuff".

Does everybody follow me here?
Ron
 
I disagree a bit about the gunpowder's fining, but I simply learned it differently. Maybe they do made different powders just because for more accurate firing, and in emergency cases all the powder worked, I dont want to start a historical dialog about this, Im sure we both have our best sources, and both of them right. Im sure about the monarchic Austrian army at least, and you seems like a guy, who nows what he talks.


About the ammo: One: what are you think about the cannon rug? Buyable every port, in great masses, very low price. Its not a big deal, and shows all the realism I wanted about the cannon reload, accompany with your powder-

About the pistol shots: I overlooked m,y thinking and found it complicated.

So: what are you think of it:
you can 'get' a pound of powder from your cabin trunk every time, while the good: cannon powder present in the ship,
and this 'pound' is translated into pistolshot amount.
Like, theres 100 shot powder in your trunk in the cabin, and if its reduced to zero, its automatically reload to 100, and decrease the cargo powder by 1. until the ships powder cargo is non present.

So, you ONLY need to go to yer cabin (which you can do once in a week..)
when all 100 shot powder you got is vanished.

and: I think, buying pistol balls is realistic. Let me explain:
If we make the OFFICIAL port shops to have atleast 1000-2000 amount of balls regurarly, and make the price REALLY low... You get the LARGE amount of powder from your trunk, placed there by your men, you buy 100-200 balls in little price on the shop, and put all these into the weapons locker,
with 5-6 musket, or pistol for the crew. (I agree with you, that musket firing procedure need to be redone)
This way, you need to atleast notice the present of prices, and trading,
you get the realism,
and its not micro management, you can go to a shop, and go to your cabin once in 2 days in REAL time, not gametime.

So the game remains a simulator, not turn to be a click-on-settings-on-forms-and-win-the-battle type strategy game,
but both get the realism, fun, and, dont tell me its not: the easy management of cannons, and smallarms ammo.

The repairs: planks, rugs, ropes. Or if you want another good: tools. (which is not necessary in my opninion)

They are all made buyable in every port in large numbers,
Until you have some amount ALL of these, you can repair.
they both decrease in same numbers. But split tehm into these categories reminds us that what goods are needed realisticly.

ANd, having 3-4 orders of repair, wont make the game complicated.
One is for patching the hull, if ships sinking (presently named: emergency repair?) just make this to use a little amount of these also.
and 2 more, for different situations. Like the fire drill is good enough,
and make some more.

I hope you find this fulfilling both our goals
 
Again, ammo can be self-contained. Buy ammo Ball should include powder and wadding to fire that many cannonballs. Add it to the picture in the goods screen, to make the point.

Check the thread on trying to figure out a new musket AI (I think it was something about "ammo restock add-on"). If we can get AI characters to fight like musketeers, then "small arms ammo" as a trade good would make perfect sense (as your crew would burn it by the bucket). Then we can add a counter, and officers/land crew can restock from the ship supply (pick up 30 to 50 rounds every time they board), it could be bought as goods (1000 rounds at a time, cheap), and it all makes sense.

Of course, that's a lot of work from now, so don't hold your breath while waiting.

And yes, on a historical note, the Austrian army did a lot of funny things. They seemed very particular about issues nobody else seemed to notice. Some of them had reasons, and some did not. I promise British Royal Navy used the same powder for their muskets and cannon. American colonials, and later United States Navy (War of 1812) took whatever powder they could get, and it was not uncommon for every bag of powder on the ship to be substantially different. As far as I know, that never stopped a cannon or a musket from working. (Water, on the other hand, was murder on black powder weapons - but that's another story.)

Ron
 
I think powder should be a seperate item in the cargo manifest. It would force you to plan more, on how much powder to take on, will you sacrifice cargo space to fire every single shot on the ship or will you convserve space and just load enough to fire all the round shots only.
 
Was that ever done, historically? Or did the people who were not planning to use much chain or grape just pack less of it to begin with? I know the British carried very little chain or bar shot, as their philosophy was to kill crew and disable cannon with round ball. However, they carried plenty of powder to fire what they had.

Most people carried more than enough powder, and after running low of proper shot, began firing any kind of garbage they could find: ballast rocks, old nails, musket balls, whatever. British Royal Navy called that shot 'Langridge' - source unknown, but likely a term related to 'garbage'. I don't want to try to simulate that.

It was the shot that was heavy and hard to handle - a 32 pound round ball fired with 6 to 10 pounds of powder (ten being for maximum range, and normally considered most unnecessary and bad for the guns). Sailors of the period considered the weight and bulk of powder as insignificant, except as a safety risk.

If we want to make ship combat more realistic, let's concentrate on sailing and damage models. Buying ammo can just be "buy ammo" - it's complex enough already. If you just need more complexity in the ammo process, add shot types. There was bar, and chain, and expanding bar, and grapeshot, and canister shot, and wood case bomb, and incendiary - and that's not including the forts using heated round ball, ship to ship harpoons, or any of the extremely rare or experimental rounds that I would hate to try to simulate. Plus there was the practice of loading two round balls per gun, for close range anti-ship (lower velocity made that a short-range weapon). If you just need to add something to the ammo, add those. If you need research on them, I'll get you what I know on them.

If you really want a challenge, go over the cannon mod and try to find a way to add cannons of multiple sizes to the same ship. Historically, most had big guns on lower decks, and lighter ones above, plus longer range weapons on the nose, and swivel guns.

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

I described a good damage model for ship combat several posts back, that would fix some of the realism issues we have raised. Did anybody look at that and see if they could do some of it?

Ron
 
I reckon it would be a pretty good idea to have a battle end not when a ship is acptured or sunk, but when teh ship is burning until it sinks. THat might be possible, but it isn't all too easy. I will remember this idea for when I am going to make a to-do list for a next Build mod version. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

I do want the powder good to be introduced, so that you can also use it as powder for pistols. Not entirely realistic maybe, but it allows you to buy powder in large supplies, which should decrease the annoying aspect of hunting for powder.
 
If we can rework the AI to use guns, then we can add "small arms ammo" as a trade good (1000 rounds at a time, or something), and restock all gun-carrying people from that supply. Then we can just assume (or state in the info) that "ammo" includes enough shot, wadding, powder, cleaning rags, gun oil and replacement flints to keep the lead flying. That would make musket ammo part of the game - something to be stocked, traded and used.

If it's just a couple of officer's pistols, it's not worth adding. Three tablespoons removed from 300 pounds of powder is just not going to show. You could sweep that much off the gun deck after reloading for one broadside.

-------------------

Obviously, battles end if the ship is captured or sunk as well. British orders of the time said to "Sink her, burn her, or take as prize." However, "burn her" is the one we don't have implemented yet.

The fire mod should be easy. I mean, if crew = zero and fires > 0, then ...

Changing the damage numbers ... I could probably do that myself, with enough time - and I know about as much about programming as a fish knows about an aircraft carrier. However, it would be better if somebody who understands this stuff did it - fewer bugs that way.

------------------
Everybody just keep thinking 'integrated game' - try to keep this as a single game, not just a bunch of 'stuff' done to somebody else's game. We have all the tools to turn this into an epic quality game here, if we can stay with it. Try to make everything fit with everything else.

Ron
 
the fires, on the ships, ships right now already take damage from burning, we could tweak up the amount of damage the fire does.
 
<!--quoteo(post=143912:date=Mar 29 2006, 02:54 PM:name=Merciless Mark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merciless Mark @ Mar 29 2006, 02:54 PM) [snapback]143912[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
the fires, on the ships, ships right now already take damage from burning, we could tweak up the amount of damage the fire does.
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Would there be a performance hit (FPS) in having ships literally burning apart? At the moment the small discrete fires exert minimal effect it seems but if you lot are advocating amping up the fires to cover most of a ship, adding in the resulting smoke (though I note your smoke in the cannon fire mod is less resources hungry), depending on the time it takes to sink then you might have multiple vessels set ablaze equalling slow-down. Just upping the damage of the current tiny fires you get on board would look strange...
 
i agree, but what if we just enlarge the texture so that the fire itself is bigger, and then tweek up the damage it does?
the fire doesn't seem to update frequently enough to cause a slowdown in my opinion.
enlarging it would probably cause a bit of lag, but not very noticable on any computer, no matter how old it is.
as for smoke, our friend Merciless Mark seems to have found a way to give a good smoke effect but not cause the lag problem that we had before, sooo... maybe he could help?
 
<!--quoteo(post=143967:date=Mar 29 2006, 10:32 PM:name=Lord Nelson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lord Nelson @ Mar 29 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]143967[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
i agree, but what if we just enlarge the texture so that the fire itself is bigger, and then tweek up the damage it does?
the fire doesn't seem to update frequently enough to cause a slowdown in my opinion.
enlarging it would probably cause a bit of lag, but not very noticable on any computer, no matter how old it is.
as for smoke, our friend Merciless Mark seems to have found a way to give a good smoke effect but not cause the lag problem that we had before, sooo... maybe he could help?
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im not shure, the problem seems to lie in the size and expansion, recall that the default smoke was rather excessive in size and at the same time very close. like the smoke clouds kind of piled up alot in one place, and that could put a load on the system.
 
Ships now sometimes have two to three burning fires. It does not produce enough graphics to slow any computers I have used lately. If you set a maximum - say, ten fires per ship equals everything burning - then it is unlikely to bog down any somewhat modern computer. This game is old enough that 'modern' computers have no problem with the graphics.

What we need is not MORE damage, but better scaled damage. Much slower hull damage. (It takes hours to burn 10,000 pounds of waterlogged oak.) Substantial damage to crew. Fire either spreads (adds a new fire next to the first) or goes out (one fire at a time), based on crew number and skill. Fire also reduces effectiveness of crew, as many of them are fighting the fire instead of sailing.

Realistic chances are that most crews would have few fire problems, unless somebody started using explosive ammo. (I already mentioned that bombs of the period were a wooden case filled with powder, or a pottery jar full of flammable oil, and not very effective weapons for general purpose use.) The only time fire would get out of control is if the ship had lost a lot of crew, or was really getting hammered.

Ron
 
I've got an idea to throw out. First of all sealants, you should require some sort of water sealant to stop sea water from getting through your hull when you make repairs. So, if you make repairs without any sealant, it repairs your hull but you still slowly take damage as sea water seeps into your hull. Along with this you could lose cargo by having it ruined by the sea water if you lack sealant. So, the materials for repairs would be: Planks, Canvas and Sealant. To keep the game from bogging down in micromanagement, you should intergrate all the repair materials into one cargo item, Repair Materials, or something like that. Each set of repair materials would be good for one repair. Simple
 
Ships of the period used some tar to seal gaps, but for the most part, well-finished oak boards kept the water out. A little varnish on the boards was about it. (Of course, it took good craftsmen to make boards fit so tight that they would hold water.) There was no substantial bulk of "sealant" in the ship.

Somebody suggested something like this before, and I said to add something called "supplies" - to include tar, nails, hammer handles, dishrags , soap, ropes, leather, oil, varnish or any other misc. equipment that would be used up in sailing or repairs, but was not specifically food, wood, or sail material. Shortage of such could greatly slow repairs, and would make life generally harder. It would not represent a huge bulk of material, but would generally relay the message that maintaining a ship was costly and troublesome.

Ron
 
i like that idea, but what about wood and sailcloth as goods?
some islands have them as commercial goods that would be traded for other things the islands need.
what we could do is set it so that the 'supplies' good would be used for repairs INSTEAD of wood and sailcloth, and make 'supplies' something that nobody imports or exports, but not make it contraband either.
that way we would kill two birds with one stone: we would end up with a new good to fix our ships with and get rid of one of the causes of the 'trader mission: trader at destination island not accepting cargo' bug.
 
<!--quoteo(post=143900:date=Mar 29 2006, 02:27 PM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Mar 29 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]143900[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
.....
It was the shot that was heavy and hard to handle - a 32 pound round ball fired with 6 to 10 pounds of powder (ten being for maximum range, and normally considered most unnecessary and bad for the guns). Sailors of the period considered the weight and bulk of powder as insignificant, except as a safety risk.
.....

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It was the PRICE of powder what made the difference.

For a captain, IMHO, to load more or less round, chain, grape ammo was not a significative decision.

Neither the amount of powder to load, speaking about its size or weight

What it was a decision is to spend so much money in powder... and to spend so much powder just to fire a long range broadside.

So, IMHO, powder must be a good, and has to have a significative prize, even that having a long battle will mean to lose all the voyage benefits just to replace the gunpowder spent.


So, at the end, forcing AI and players ships to select the shots, and prefer short range combats and boarding actions.

Just my opinion

Kblack.
 
Wood and sailcloth are not contraband anywhere. Some places import them, and so they can be quite expensive and not in great supply - but that is tragically realistic, so should probably be kept. (You can't carry as much cargo if you're worried about your supply status.)

If "supplies" were added, it would probably be a morale issue ("How can I swab the deck if we're out of soap?"), and lack of them would greatly reduce repair efficiency. (You can still fix the ship, but it will be ten times less efficient if you have to tie all of the old rope scraps together on the rigging instead of getting new ones.) I say "IF" they were added - this sort of thing was historically a big deal for entire nations, but the cost for one ship might not be enough to bother adding it to the game.

If somebody really wants to improve the trade goods options:

1. Make more things edible. Rename current "Wheat" as rations (and/or possibly add rations to replace wheat as food, but keep wheat as a trade good), to represent seaworthy food in general. Make it so the crew can eat fruit, in small quantities, and this will both take the place of some of the food and improve morale. Other foodstuffs (copra- dried coconut meat - could be eaten to prevent starvation, but morale would go down) could be consumed in emergencies. If they run out of rum, check for ale, and then wine.

2. The thread on modifying ships mentioned rigging ships for commercial net fishing. This could be profitable, and at very least would add food to the inventory. To make that work, we need to add "fish" as a foodstuff. If we're adding fish, add "domestic animals" as well - many ships of the period carried pigs, cows, or chickens, both to be eaten directly and to provide milk and eggs. (The potential benefits of milk and eggs were for morale, not extending food supplies - the animals ate as much as they produced.)

3. For some realism, turn the "instant repair" into a function where the crew would go ashore and cut enough wood to make repairs, hunt for food, or whatever. (I got that idea from the mod to require a safe anchor point for "instant repair".) That way, repairs and restock would use few resources - they would cut the wood and play hunter/gatherer for food - but would take more time than normal repairs (passed in cutscene, like passage of time on "sail to"). (Of course, time means you either have to pay the crew, or if operating under articles, morale risks). Rename it to reflect the new function - "explorer" or something. That WAS done, historically, when ships ran low of supplies. You could replace food and repair planks that way, and the shore time was usually good for morale. On that note, scrap the "light repairs" perk - we might find some other function for it later, but "make hull repairs appear by magic" seems a bit absurd.

4. Without proper planking, check for ebony or mahogany before giving up on repairs. Might be expensive, but it would keep you afloat. (I don't think sandalwood can be used to make things that float, tragically.) Also, if rigging gets below 10% without sailcloth, check for linen, and then for silk, until rigging gets above 10%. If you're stranded, you build sails out of anything you can find. Doubtful you could make good sails out of bolts of commercial clothing fabric, but it might get you back to port.


Especially for #1, there, I have seen many posts on the subject already. That would add a lot to the game. Considering the code for the food mod already, it should not be impossible to add either. (I say "should not be" impossible - I can't confirm that. I can't read the code for the food mod now, but somebody on this board wrote it, so it wasn't created by magic.)

That would add the most to the trade goods and repair sequences.
Ron
 
And a post while I was writing the last one, so:

Firing cannons was expensive. Still is.

There is an economic issue here. Enough cannon ammo to bomb a country into the ground seems to cost less than one good sidearm. Heck, you can buy enough material to build a city for the price of a good blade right now. A crate of silk costs as much as a shipload of gunpowder. I mean, gunpowder is not really expensive by the pound, but we're talking about TONS here.

If a better ground combat AI can be put in place, I would be in favor of rebalancing the price of ships, cannon ammo, and small arms to a more historically accurate level. Small arms should be a lot cheaper to buy and use than cannon - but of course, then you can't really hide behind your 'technology', as it were. However, this will do strange things to game balance, unless we can get an AI that fights like the historical period in question. To make the rebalanced prices work out, it would need a group of guys (10 or more per side) with blades or muskets - not just a couple of officers doing all of the fighting. That way, the large number of small arms (and their ammo) required to do anything would offset the price difference - which is both historical and logical, as well as keeping the game working.

So, let's hold off on that one until we can rebalance everything else.

See, I'm not a total realism freak - I acknowledge game balance is an issue.

But it's still not a question of making powder and shot into different goods - it's a question of ammo pricing (and price of everything else) in general. It needs work. Just don't get the wagon ahead of the horse.

Ron
 
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