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A dissertation about not losing sight of gameplay.

Funny. Sort of a comical twist on the old British orders "sink her, burn her, or take as prize."

Seriously, I would be more concerned about what happens BEFORE you board one. If the option of sinking the captured enemy ship were replaced with the burning scene, that would be fine too. However, what happens during the battle is game critical. What happens afterward is sideshow.

And the problem with realism is getting the right feel. I think everyone would agree a real conflict would be exciting. (Along with puke-your-lunch, sit-down-in-a-corner-and-cry, curdle-your-blood terrifying, but that's another story.) (I've seen my share of real bloodshed, and "exciting" is not even the tip of the iceberg.) The key is getting that feel into a game. If you don't get the feel, then details of realism are pointless either way. In movies, it's called "suspension of disbelief". If you forget it's only a game/movie/novel/whatever, and start getting excited like it's real, then you have suspension of disbelief. Being somewhat realistic, at least in certain elements, is usually the quickest way to get this effect. Realistic elements make it easier to accept the unrealistic ones - to "get into" the game, as it were.

That's why some of us keep saying that gameplay suffers when you move away from maximum effective realism. Unless you're marketing the game to children (who think cartoons are real), it's the most obvious way out. To a bunch of mostly university-educated adults, holes in things like physics detract from the immersion level.
 
Ron, I think it's time you started looking seriously at the code. A lot of the kinds of tweaks you want can be done by someone with little experience. And trust me, it's no less work for me than it is for you, and I have better things to be doing.

I'm happy with the damage model at the moment. I'm happy with the way ships sink at some point. I'm DAMNED happy that there are no bombs. I avoid fires by having them turned off. I'm happy with the way ships currently surrender, usually before being destroyed. I'm generally happy with the feel of the naval combat and the current balance in the game.

First, you have to find out where the values you want to change are originally set. Then you have to decide whether to change the damage the guns do or the amount of damage a ship can take, or both. Then you have to plug in values that you think are reasonable. Then you have to fight a large number of battles with your new numbers and see what works and what doesn't. Then you tweak your values and do it all over again.

Find out if it's possible to carry enough cannonballs to cause enough damage to resolve a battle at all. Keep in mind that crew morale is linked to the percentage of hull destroyed, which affects ship surrender and boarding. Decide if you want YOUR ship to be the one that can't turn at all because the sails are destroyed. Or is it enough just to be able to keep out of the firing arc of a dismasted ship?

Determine how long a battle can be before the general player gets bored and goes to find another game to play, and keep the battles well under that time limit. And never ever lose sight of the fact that what might be fun for you won't be fun for everyone else... and in some cases for ANYone else.

Tweak the game to play any way you want like I did with mine. It's not like everything's locked up in some secret place and we can't change it. You'll learn programming as you go along. And the easiest thing to learn is how to change the value of a variable.

And good luck.

Hook
 
My looks at the code found an incomprehensible jumble of variables I can't look up, punctuation I have no way of checking, and statements that referenced things I can't find. My shot at the code was a dismal failure. I'm a much better historian than I will ever be a computer programmer. (I'm just one of the people who admits it - a lot try to hide such facts, and so create huge mounds of technical bugs. We have enough bugs going around already, and I sure don't want to be responsible for creating more.)

As for wanting certain things to happen, I keep saying reality was balanced. That's what made it reality. A game can be balanced too. If it isn't possible to carry enough cannonballs to restage a historical fight, then the cargo space of the ships or the weight of cannonballs is wrong. If it is possible to get the sails totally destroyed before your cannon hurts the enemy seriously, then the range or effectiveness of chain shot is too high - historically, the French tactic of attacking rigging first was about 50% effective (i.e. half the time, they crippled the enemy before he could get on them, the other times they got shot to splinters first), so we should be shooting for about the same. Things can be balanced along the lines of history, or along the lines of fantasy - and the balancing act is just as hard either way.

I don't know what the "average" or "general" player wants, but there were a lot of posts earlier around here concerning realism. Several people said realistic was good, and game balance should be worked out AFTER the simulation was accurate. I had never really thought of it before (at least not on "pirate ship" games - I had always assumed they were sort of Disneyworld, and never considered them simulation). However, that got me doing some research, and I came to the conclusion that real combat (even in simulation) was more playable than "computer games" - it created more excitement over the various problems, stimulated more intense thought, and kept people interested longer. (Almost all of the computer games still being played 10 years after they were made are the ones praised for the most realistic elements.)

An example of what I mean IS the current sail mod. Things like actually slow turning speed and square-rigged ships being quite immobile when turned into the wind - that adds interest to the game. You learn that there are some things that just don't work. It gives you options, and it gives you problems. The game balance issue - specifically the long time to do anything - was handled another way. (In that case, with a greatly enhanced "accelerate time" option.) That's exactly the sort of changes I mean. I just keep producing more of them.

It would be the same thing if stopped and extremely slow ships couldn't really turn. It would just mean that you should avoid getting all your masts shot off. It would also mean that speed is life, so a ship that moves very slowly takes an additional hit to maneuvering if the wind is light or the sails are damaged. It would create more tactical options for smaller ships. (Like the way the British navy destroyed the Spanish Armada - superior use of the wind and maneuverability to outclass much heavier warships.) Choices equal gameplay. If stopped ships can still turn faster than fast ships can circle them, there is no choice and no tactic - more guns wins.

If someone were to set up a mod file that had most of these lines of code in place and working, then I could test and tweak numbers until it seemed like the picture I wanted. If I had a huge guide to exactly where each variable was stored and what it was called, I might be able to run them down. However, it would take me 10 years to learn enough programming to figure out the current lines. I'm going to need a little help.
 
Just a quick opinion:

IMHO, this thread is a refreshing and interesting discussion about where the game is going, or better, where WE want to steer it.

IMHO, Ron is trying to "shake" some prejudged ideas, to do some good received brainstorming.

IMHO, threads like this one are damned good to start fixing the objectives and desires for Post-B13 mods...

Tomorrow, if (hopefully) I am not too depressed by a-not-probable-but-anyway-possible Spanish defeat at the Mundials, I'll post a more extense reflexion about these subjects.

Saludos

Kblack.
 
Ship data, like the number of hit points, is in PROGRAM/Ships/Ships_init.c

Gun data is in PROGRAM/CANNONS/Cannons_init.c

The functions that relate to damage during combat are in the various files in PROGRAMS/SEA_AI. AI_Ship.c is a good place to start looking.

If you cannot turn once your ship is dismasted, you have no other option that to wait for destruction or quit the game and reload from a save. I was involved in another sailing game where dismasted ships were immobile and players wanted the option to be able to turn, possibly using oars stuck out the gunports or having the bow towed around by ships boats.

And just how do you avoid getting your masts shot off? That's like saying you should avoid getting sunk. And if you do get your masts shot off, you can't sail back to port. Game over. If the enemy does not sink you, you're stuck forever and have to quit and reload a saved game. Wanna bet this is why dismasting was removed from the original game?

I want the game to be Just Realistic Enough. But it still has to be playable and a fun game.

Hook
 
<!--quoteo(post=152557:date=Jun 27 2006, 05:31 PM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Jun 27 2006, 05:31 PM) [snapback]152557[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Ship data, like the number of hit points, is in PROGRAM/Ships/Ships_init.c

Gun data is in PROGRAM/CANNONS/Cannons_init.c

The functions that relate to damage during combat are in the various files in PROGRAMS/SEA_AI. AI_Ship.c is a good place to start looking.

If you cannot turn once your ship is dismasted, you have no other option that to wait for destruction or quit the game and reload from a save. I was involved in another sailing game where dismasted ships were immobile and players wanted the option to be able to turn, possibly using oars stuck out the gunports or having the bow towed around by ships boats.

And just how do you avoid getting your masts shot off? That's like saying you should avoid getting sunk. And if you do get your masts shot off, you can't sail back to port. Game over. If the enemy does not sink you, you're stuck forever and have to quit and reload a saved game. Wanna bet this is why dismasting was removed from the original game?

I want the game to be Just Realistic Enough. But it still has to be playable and a fun game.

Hook
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Agree: if you can't turn, NOW you haven't any other option but to stay to wait destruction

BUT, we have two ways to avoid it:
1 - Allow player ship to turn even when dismasted.... or....
2 - allow player to surrender ... and start a quest trying to escape.

I'm completely sure that 1 is possible, and 80% sure that 2 is also possible (although a lot of work)

BTW Spain is losing against France <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/modding.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":modding" border="0" alt="modding.gif" /> .... I'm not happy at all <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/urgh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":urgh" border="0" alt="urgh.gif" /> .... grrrrrr
 
<!--quoteo(post=152602:date=Jun 27 2006, 03:47 PM:name=kblack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kblack @ Jun 27 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]152602[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
1 - Allow player ship to turn even when dismasted.... or....
2 - allow player to surrender ... and start a quest trying to escape.
I'm completely sure that 1 is possible, and 80% sure that 2 is also possible (although a lot of work)
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1 is already in the game. 2 is possible if someone wants to put enough work into it.

There's still a problem if you get dismasted and the enemy sails away leaving you to rot. Perhaps you can still sail on the map screen without masts. It's still possible that you'll be locked there forever, having to exit the game, if there are enemies nearby that don't leave.

We may need the ability to jury rig a mast. Even without materials, or any repair skill. After all, there should be a mast floating in the water nearby. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Hook
 
<!--quoteo(post=152606:date=Jun 28 2006, 07:09 AM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Jun 28 2006, 07:09 AM) [snapback]152606[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
There's still a problem if you get dismasted and the enemy sails away leaving you to rot. Perhaps you can still sail on the map screen without masts. It's still possible that you'll be locked there forever, having to exit the game, if there are enemies nearby that don't leave.

We may need the ability to jury rig a mast. Even without materials, or any repair skill. After all, there should be a mast floating in the water nearby. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Hook
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If you are dismasted & the enemy does sail away, once the world map icon appears you can sail on the world map. I did it after losing my masts on my MOW after having an arguement with a British convoy.
 
Here is a SS I just took depicting the world map icon coming up after losing the masts on the Warship I commandeered after taking it's masts out with Chain Shot.

<img src="http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/SuoiveD01/POTC/WMDismasted.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

I swapped ships after dismasting & boarding her.
 
What to do if you get all of your motivation destroyed, but manage to survive the ensuing battle (without gaining anything you could use to get out of the mess):

Well, in a word, jury-rig some power would be the historical response. A completely crippled ship for combat purposes could probably, within a day or so, manage to organize enough oars or ship boats to turn them around and put out enough sails to get them headed somewhere. I mean, pull the downed mast out of the water, lay it crossways over the deck, and hang whatever scrap cloth you can find for sails. That would get you up to about 5% power, and you can head for the nearest land. Call it "emergency repairs".

Now, this would take hours. Without adequate materials, putting out boats and scouring the water for what you need - that's not going to be a small feat. Even rounding up enough rope to build a working kite sail would not be easy, and without gale-force winds, getting it in the air could be a real trick. It's not something you could even attempt with someone shooting at you.

However, in reality or game, it would be unlikely to get 100% of your motivation destroyed. More likely, you would only get hit hard enough to cripple you from taking effective combat measures, and thereby allow your enemy to shoot you into splinters, board or whatever he planned to do. This is known as "losing the fight" - and it happens.

The hole in the plot now is that attacks to sail (no matter how serious) do not prevent effective maneuvering. This makes attacks to sail virtually useless for combat purposes. Rigging damage hinders your ability to sail to port later, but it doesn't hinder your ability to maneuver in combat. That's backwards. It should cripple you immediately, but not be impossible to repair or jury-rig.

There's one more detail of realism missing, and that's trade with other ships. One of the classic things for a seriously damaged ship to do is flag down another ship, and trade with them for food, medical supplies, or repair materials. Maybe "call for help" is a simplistic response, but it was procedure, historically.

This is what I keep saying, history was balanced for life. The key to game balance is just to find where history was balanced and how.
 
Ron, I'm a little confused by your response.

A totally dismasted ship has no sails. This can happen in the game and happened frequently during real battles. There were still ways to get these ships turned so their guns could bear on an enemy, which I mentioned above.

If there was no friendly ship to tow them back to port, they would jury rig a sail on a spar and use that. It's slow, but it works. Jury rigged sails on spars can also be used to turn a ship.

If you're dismasted during battle, you cannot maneuver. I assume you're using realistic sailing mode.

For gaming purposes, the ability to cause your ship to turn, however slowly, means you don't have to wait to be sunk. It also means you don't have to exit the game and reload a previous save. It's less boring.

How long should the average sea battle last? Not from a historical viewpoint, not from any reality-based viewpoint, but from a gaming viewpoint. How long a battle will the average player put up with? What's the longest you would be able to sit at the computer, locked in combat with another ship, without being able to save? The answer to this question is the basis for everything that follows about tweaking damage models.

Hook
 
<!--quoteo(post=152674:date=Jun 28 2006, 07:22 AM:name=Ron Losey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ron Losey @ Jun 28 2006, 07:22 AM) [snapback]152674[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
There's one more detail of realism missing, and that's trade with other ships. One of the classic things for a seriously damaged ship to do is flag down another ship, and trade with them for food, medical supplies, or repair materials. Maybe "call for help" is a simplistic response, but it was procedure, historically.
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I am wanting to add that into the game. I want to sort-of hyjack the "Instant Board" ability, but change it into a "Call Other Ship" button. On using that button, you will be transport to the deck of the other ship (IF the captain wants to talk to you, that is) and you can trade with the other ship, exchange rumours, but also try to kill the enemy captain or try to make the crew mutiny and join you instead or to talk about the terms for surrender. This would be a sort of "Parley" mod as well. It should be possible; I have a bit of an idea on how to do it. But it'll be a loooong time until it's done and I will be needing some help.
 
<!--quoteo(post=152679:date=Jun 28 2006, 07:45 AM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Jun 28 2006, 07:45 AM) [snapback]152679[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
..... There were still ways to get these ships turned so their guns could bear on an enemy, which I mentioned above.

If there was no friendly ship to tow them back to port, they would jury rig a sail on a spar and use that. It's slow, but it works. Jury rigged sails on spars can also be used to turn a ship.
......
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Well, yes and no.

Yes: almost always you can set some form of improvised sail, even using a yard as mast.
Yes: it was possible to do it in the middle of a combat.
No: You can maneuver, but with VERY serious restrictions... most likely you will have to sail with the wind, or very near.



<!--quoteo(post=152679:date=Jun 28 2006, 07:45 AM:name=Hook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hook @ Jun 28 2006, 07:45 AM) [snapback]152679[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
How long should the average sea battle last? Not from a historical viewpoint, not from any reality-based viewpoint, but from a gaming viewpoint. How long a battle will the average player put up with? What's the longest you would be able to sit at the computer, locked in combat with another ship, without being able to save? The answer to this question is the basis for everything that follows about tweaking damage models.

Hook
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True. For me, I can spend hours fighting... in fact, I'm thinking to tune my game so the damage done by cannons is bigger, the reload time longer, diminishing the speed and the turn ability... so making the game: slower, harder, and hopefully making the AI less vulnerable.
 
My point was that, if masts were destroyed (or even sails seriously damaged), the most harmful loss historically was a severe reduction in the ability to turn. This loss of turning to bring guns to bear on an enemy was the fatal damage - the loss of forward motion itself was minor. They didn't really need to be moving forward - they just needed water passing over the rudder. Speed was really only critical for creating turning power.

Now, in the current game, ships still turn surprisingly well even at absurdly low speeds or stopped (unless this was changed in the last patch, which I still need to install - but I've been kind of busy this week). (Should have more time starting this week.) The way the game was programmed, turn rate really has nothing to do with forward speed. The result is that sail damage does not really cripple a ship - it can still turn faster than you can circle it. This makes sail damage tactically ineffective, with the single exception of a chase - preventing a fleeing ship from getting away, or to slow a pursuer. It also makes the speed of smaller ships less of an issue - the big ship can still turn to fire from inside their turn. That seems unfair to a critical part of the ancient art of war in the seas.

Now, the inability to truly cripple a ship (because they can still turn to fire effectively) creates the game balance issue of needing the ships to sink more easily, which off-balances the effectiveness of ... well, never mind. It's back to my point of balance - it can be historical, or fantasy, but it's just as hard to get it right either way.

That was my point.
 
Don't ships have rudders? And any amount of forward speed, allows the ship to turn at their regular turning speed based on rudder? Unless the rudder is shot off... but god, don't be adding that to the game too.

Again, don't lose sight that this is a GAME. Complete realism, is a bore. Fun additions that add spice, are fun. Waiting for your captain to take a dump, is a bore... having to talk to each and every one of your 200 crew, to see if they want something, is a bore... making a rope snap somewhere on the deck, that disables the use of a sail, and thus create havok with ship control... maybe... so long as it stops filling my log files with errors about rope points not existing! LOL.

I had no idea this thread would turn into a novel.
 
All threads turn into novels on this board. It's what happens when you mix history and computer games.

The physics on turning is like this - moving vehicles have a turn radius. It defines an arc of travel. The vehicle must move along that arc in order to complete the turn. I mean, you turn the wheel on the car but remain stopped, and you don't turn. If you're trying to push the car uphill by yourself, at the amazing speed of toenail growth, turning the steering wheel still takes some time to actually change the direction of the car. Moving too fast allows one to turn, but because of the speed, makes the actual circle larger than should be necessary. The game issue is that we have ships who can sit stationary (or nearly so) and still turn the same number of degrees per minute as a moving craft. This ensures you can never get out of their firing arc. This is horribly unreasonable. It undermines the entire logic of having faster ships, and the entire logic of attacking the rigging.

Seriously, ships being crippled should be more common than ships being sunk. Most "kills" on ships should either be the ship burning, or the ship being disabled in a way that it has no choice but surrender (i.e. the inability to maneuver effectively makes them a sitting duck). That would be historical. It would also not hurt gameplay. Might help it - disabled ships are still in play, so they keep things lively. They might still fight if boarded, or if captured they give you all the fun of a disabled prize ship to manage. Trying to protect your own rigging could certainly encourage certain (historical) tactics as well - like not getting too close.

Now the way I see this, the fights at sea ARE the game. The game is about pirate ships blasting the crud out of each other. Every hour we add to blasting each other (complete with the complexity of really trading round shot with somebody, to keep mental focus), and every hour we remove from running around looking for bullets or buttons, should add to the game. In contrast, the endless pursuit of better personal weapons (or maintaining the ones you have) seems to detract, as does sifting through buckets of inventory looking for the right widget. So does endless strings of conversations with every single human - I mean, the towns could just be a menu for all I care. The sea battles make the game. More sea battle good - more running around playing door-to-door salesman bad. Time trading cannonballs equals gameplay - the rest is mostly filler.

How many agree with me? Well don't just vote ... build mods and tweak settings. Anybody can vote.
 
Ron are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that you aren't sailing in arcade mode? Check under the options screen, as that's where it's set.

Heck, I'm using realistic sailing and have multiplied the ship turning rate by 2 so they turn faster, and I'm *still* able to keep out of the firing arc of their cannons most of the time. Especially with the tiny firing arcs that are the default for realistic cannons. I used to have these doubled, and it was helping the enemy ships a lot more than it was helping me.

And ships turn faster under battle sails, and turn faster if they're moving faster. This is all part of the game already if you're using realistic sailing instead of arcade. A ship that's stopped turns very slowly indeed.

And you never said how long a sea battle should be.

Hook
 
I'll monkey with the mods I have installed, and see if I can confirm the sailing model. I'm sure it's not arcade, but I'll double-check to make sure the latest mods are installed in the correct order.


As for length of sea battles, we have one huge advantage - time acceleration. That means long turns from outside of gun range, or pursuits where you only close on them by a few feet an hour, or other annoying delays can be accelerated to cut the down-time.

If you want an actual estimate, here is a link for you:

<a href="http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/engagement.html" target="_blank">http://www.nelsonsnavy.co.uk/engagement.html</a>

It is an account of the duel between two frigates - HMS Macedon and USS United States, in 1812. Although times are not given in minutes, Samuel Leech (the author) describes the ships trading a number of broadsides (likely at least ten at pretty close range, probably more, plus maneuvering time). Any historical estimate would probably put the engagement at a minimum of an hour or so between first shot fired and when HMS Macedon surrendered - and possibly a lot longer, if the wind was light and the maneuvering had taken longer than normal. The fight ended with HMS Macedon quite disabled and suffering heavy crew casualties, but certainly in no danger of sinking.

The Battle of the Nile lasted for several hours. The French flagship Orient burned for more than an hour before it finally exploded. A major fleet engagement should last 2 to 6 hours, even if it's just a shooting gallery. France had two Class 1 ships burned, 8 captured, and managed to escape with two, not counting a handfull of frigates.

Small numbers of smaller ships might end the fight a lot faster. After all, frigates and larger were designed for fleet action - they could take a lot of punishment. Some little fishing boat might not do so well. And of course, boarding a ship is the fastest way to end the fight - one way or the other. So it all could depend very heavily on the fight. If both ships go straight for grapeshot and try to board, it could end very fast. If wind is light and rigging gets hit first, it could be drawn out for a horrible long time. Such was the age of sail.

Again, we have time acceleration. Long delays and down-time are not our problem. With careful use of time accelerate, you could likely work a one-hour battle into 20 minutes or less, without detracting from the actual gunfire scenes. In a prolonged delay, like a pursuit, even more could be cut with acceleration.

How was that for "how long should a battle last?"
 
One little point: Some people think the land-part of the game is also very much a part of te game. I myself obviously LOVE sailing, but in Pirates of the Caribbean, I also very much enjoy walking around the islands, fighting enemies, talking with people, doing quests, etc. I like anything that adds something new to the game. For me, it doesn't matters whether the sea battles are improved or if some new things are added to do on land.
 
If it came down to a choice, I'd rather do things on land like quests, having battles, etc.
Ships are just a means to sail from 1 island to another.
I only raid other ships or bombard other forts for the sheer fun of it.
Having fights with soldiers, doing Treasure quests & having to battle 10 or more Pirates or Bandits so I can get to the treasure chest.
The possibilities, battles & fun I have on land far outweigh the battles & fun I have on the sea.
 
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