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Discussion in 'Ship Modeling' started by Armada, Apr 16, 2011.

  1. morgan terror

    morgan terror Magnificent bastard Storm Modder News Gatherer

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    you might want to have a go at the snow brig next.
     
  2. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    No can do. "model can not be read". That is for the big compound mast that everything attaches to.
     
  3. morgan terror

    morgan terror Magnificent bastard Storm Modder News Gatherer

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    topsail schooner then?
     
  4. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    Which model is that? I would have to get it in game to look at it. Some of the schooners have their sails pointing off to the side so that no matter what I do they look wrong.
     
  5. Armada

    Armada Sea Dog Staff Member Administrator Project Manager 3D Artist Storm Modder

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    Fantastic news! I knew you'd get it eventually. :cheers
     
  6. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    Here ya go Armada. :doff It's only a European Barque, but other ships will be coming. I'm working on the English Barques now, but it's slow going because the allergies have kicked in making it hard to see the little numbers. :urgh
     
  7. Armada

    Armada Sea Dog Staff Member Administrator Project Manager 3D Artist Storm Modder

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    Looks much better! :onya
    I've realised that there are a select few ships which this won't work for, because their spankers are modelled to a rey.
    That would cause problems when inverting, so I'll replace those spankers with similar ones to fix them. An example is on Surprise1, but there are a few others as well.
     
  8. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    A special note regarding this: You are correct about the spanker only being able to be set a certain distance outboard; but

    The two lines that control the boom (lower spar) are the sheet (further aft and amidships; holds the boom inboard), and the preventer (about halfway down the boom, in front of the sheet. It holds the boom outboard).
    The sheet is fixed, but it can be let out as far as it needs to be. And the main point: The preventer is not fixed; it has a hook on the end that can be moved. depending on the wind, it can be made fast inboard (the boom will not go out as far) or outboard. (the boom goes out further). After it is set it is hauled taught. (especially difficult when you are tacking a square rigger. the sequence of tacking requires you to haul it into the wind. But that's beside the point.)

    And all this to say that there is technically no limit to how far outboard you can set the spanker, until it it is up against the shrouds of the corresponding mast. So the Speedy's spanker is actually about to the farthest extent you would normally see it. I personally wouldn't go any further than that, though.

    I would post an example from the Brig Pilgrim, but I never thought to get a picture from that angle.

    Also, there are two (Two, mind you) lines controlling the gaff's (upper spar) movement, one port, one starboard, running directly to the deck. There are two halyards, one at the very base, closest to the mast, (the throat halyard) And one at the very tip (the peak halyard) So many of the game's spankers are technically incorrect from the rigging standpoint. If you need to redo the spankers, and this is part of their rigging, I could provide pictures of the proper setup.
     
  9. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    I for one have been just guessing at how a spanker should be rigged. And I will be doing more spankers soon, so enlighten me. :drunk
     
  10. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    I'll be heading over to the Ocean Institute on Friday to conduct some unrelated business, so I'll take a few highly detailed pictures of the Pilgrim's Spanker and upload them. (That's what she said.*) That will do a lot better than words will to get the point across. I believe our sheet has been removed along with the sail for repairs so I'll also do a quick drawing of how that should look.
    If you want a detailed description before Friday, you'll probably just end up with another muddled explanation identical to my previous one.

    *My favorite nautical "that's what she said" is "Douse the spanker with some seamen." Others include "sweat the throat," and "put your prick in the touchhole." In fact such terms were often used...... nevermind.


    Edit: I did find some sufficient pictures from last summer's Brig Pilgrim trip, which I will post tomorrow. My full discourse on spankers and other gaff-rigged sails will come Friday, along with clearer pictures.
     
  11. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    I figured that I'd allow myself this one double post:

    Here are a few of my pictures that I found: Note that some vessels would have been rigged differently based upon time period and size. (I believe the Constitution model with the lines running from the gaff to the mizzen yards is correct. I know the real Hms Surprise, as well as Aubrey's version from the books had these lines as well, based on the rigging plans in the book The Frigate Surprise) The Pilgrim, shown in all of the pictures is about 135 feet in length and 130 feet tall.
    Explanations and more pictures will follow tomorrow or Saturday.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    note that our spanker boom is a little higher up in relation to the deck then some men of wars' would be
    You may be able to zoom in more here:
    http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy82/Alexander_Ah/Ships/
    I feel obliged to mention that all of the drawings there are dated- My new non-uploaded stuff looks far better.
     
  12. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    Thank you for these pictures. They answer some questions and bring up some more questions.
     
  13. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    No problem. Hopefully I'll be able to clarify tomorrow or the day after.
     
  14. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    I'm working on a ship with a lateen sail now, so there is time. :cheers
     
  15. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    Well, I'm relieved. I got held up these past few days. I should hopefully have it up soon.
     
  16. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    Double post number two: (this may be important)

    Post Captain's Guide to Spankers, Spencers, and Trys'ls
    [hr]
    Note that this stuff also applies to schooners, ketches, etc. For the sake of time, I won't go into the stuff that is tolerably accurate in the game, or would take too long to fix, such as furling. The Pilgrim is rigged like a snow brig (pronounced snou, with an ou like in ouch) so there are extra "masts" directly parallel to thereal masts that the gaff and the boom are attached to.
    Gaff: the spar on top.
    Boom: the bottom spar. If the sail is only rigged to a gaff, and does not have a boom (usually only the fores'ls on certain schooners) then the lifts, baggywrinkles, preventer, and sheet are nonexistent.See below for what the hell baggywrinkles are.
    [​IMG]
    The line above and attached to the gaff is the peak halyard, which raises the tip of the gaff up or down. It has been run through several blocks. The rigging of this line generally followed the form shown, but with some variations. I would recommend looking at some images of other vessels as well as this one.
    The lines running from the end of the gaff downwards are the gaff vangs, controlling the trim (port or starboard) of the gaff.
    The lines with the fuzzy things attached (the fuzzy things are called baggywrinkles and act as chafe protection for the sail. see next.) are the spanker boom lifts, controlling the upwards or downwards elevation of the boom. they are necessary on any vessel with a boom. (at least from the time period we're interested in)
    Baggywrinkles were always attached to the lifts to protect the sail.
    The line attached furthest forward on the gaff is the throat halyard. It raises the "throat" or inside of the gaff up or down. On schooners, the gaff would be lowered down onto the boom to furl the sail using the peak and throat halyards. On brigs, ships, and the like, the sail was furled similar to how the sails are furled in the game.
    [​IMG]
    a detailed view of the throat halyard. It is only the one attached to the gaff along with its two blocks. (there are a lot of other lines there)
    [​IMG]
    the line attached to the end of the boom running downwards is the sheet, used to hold the boom inboard. the more it is loosed, the further outboard the boom goes.This was usually rigged to the end of the boom, no matter how far off the stern it protruded. It is possible on larger vessels to have two separate s and lines, but you would need to further research that on a case by case basis.
    The loop hanging of the boom near the left of the frame is where the preventer would attach, which would pull the boom outboard. It was ideally rigged two thirds of the way out on the boom. It is not currently rigged on the Pilgrim, since the sail has been removed for the winter months. The line would be rigged to two blocks, similar to the throat halyard's set up but smaller. there was a hook at the end to allow it to be moved to either port or starboard, depending on the wind.
    The lines attached to the boom moving diagonally to the right are the boom lifts, discussed earlier.
    [​IMG]
    the bottom three red circles indicate where the preventer could be attached to the deck by way of its hook. the starboard side has the same setup. It could also attach to a backstay to allow it to go further outboard, but these rings are more commonly used for regular sailing. THe red circle on top is where the port gaff vang attaches.
    [​IMG]
    You can actually see the sheet here. The Spencer (like the spanker, but on the fore mast) is furled the same way the spanker is, regardless of its lack of a boom.
    The tiny coil of line at the very end of the boom is the flag halyard, which is used to hoist the ensign.
    [​IMG]
    The sail is held to the mast by those wooden hoops, which are lashed to the sail with twine.
    see http://s780.photobucket.com/albums/yy82/Alexander_Ah/Ships/ for more details if the link works.

    I'm sure I've knocked at least a few of you unconscious with this convoluted explanation, so feel free to ask questions.
    Now if somebody wants to do a model of the Pilgrim...
     
  17. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    Thank you for the explanation of how the spanker is rigged. Now to translate that into the game. I suspect the baggywrinkles aren't going to work because the sail billows too much in the game.
     
  18. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    A quick addition: The sheet on a trys'l (trapezoidal, like a spanker) that is not rigged to a boom attaches directly to the corner of the sail, and is attached to the deck by a hook, much like a preventer. Depending on where the wind is coming from, the sheet can be made off to the port or starboard side. (it should be made off to the leeward side of the vessel) In the game, the sheet is only made off to the center of the vessel, but the gaff behaves correctly in relation to the sail. (besides the wind direction problem of course) I can draw a diagram sometime if you need clarification. You can also look for pictures of the Pride of Baltimore II under sail, since I know their fores'l is rigged like that.

    this might be far more trouble than it is worth, but I'm not a modder and therefore I have no Idea.

    Also, the preventers are rigged differently on some schooners. The Ocean Institute's schooner Spirit of Dana Point is returning from an extended stay in Santa Barbara, so I might be able to post some pictures after this weekend. (we keep the vessel fully rigged all year, unlike the Pilgrim, so that might help as well.)
    For the purpose of the game it might just be easier to show two preventers rigged instead of one, so you can have one on port an one on starboard.

    You might already know this, but It might be worth mentioning that the gaff on a lateen sail moves like any trys'l gaff, with the sail's sheet being repositioned so that the sail can actually catch the wind and not end up slanted at a 45 degree angle off vertical.
    take this xebec, for example.
    [​IMG]
    It's kind of disappointing that the developers didn't do their research to begin with,but oh well.
     
  19. Hylie Pistof

    Hylie Pistof Curmudgeon Staff Member QA Tester Storm Modder

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    Here are examples of some of the better sails in the game. We don't have the option of moving them around according to the wind. I will be experimenting with the ropes more, for sure.
     
  20. Post Captain

    Post Captain Seamanship Advisor Coordinator QC Advisor Storm Modder

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    Would it be a viable option to rig the bottom of the lateen sails to "invisible" booms, not seen in game, that make them behave more like spankers? That wouldn't be too far from what they look like in real life. That being said, I do love the modified trys'ls.
    By the way, I just received confirmation that the Spirit of Dana Point will be arriving Saturday, so due to the nature of furling on schooners, I will be able to provide close-up pictures of the halyards and other rigging.
     

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