Fixed Sea Relations: Change in Nation Relations from Player Actions

[Grey Roger]

What you CAN do is get a LoM and a merchant letter. That is quite possible and basically makes you a Privateer who doesn't need to worry about signing articles with his crew.
You shouldn't lose your merchant letter as long as you don't commit any actual acts of piracy.

That's exactly what the EITC did for its East Indiamen, so that's fair enough.

Demotion for navy officer is currently a bit of a tricky thing; needs to be looked in further. Some time.....

Would this work?
All companion ships mutiny. Or, if that's too harsh, is it possible to have them become independent ships serving your former served nation? You lose your professional navy status as the navy doesn't want pirates in its ranks, even minor ones, but the other ships are still loyal navy ships.
Now you're a privateer. Lose relation points and demote accordingly. If you had enough relation points to survive that then you're still a privateer - you're no longer welcome in the navy but in view of your past service the nation still may have use for you. Otherwise, if the loss of relation points takes you below 0 then you're kicked out entirely as if you had been a privateer in the first place - lose the LoM as well.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Would this work?
All companion ships mutiny. Or, if that's too harsh, is it possible to have them become independent ships serving your former served nation? You lose your professional navy status as the navy doesn't want pirates in its ranks, even minor ones, but the other ships are still loyal navy ships.
Now you're a privateer. Lose relation points and demote accordingly. If you had enough relation points to survive that then you're still a privateer - you're no longer welcome in the navy but in view of your past service the nation still may have use for you. Otherwise, if the loss of relation points takes you below 0 then you're kicked out entirely as if you had been a privateer in the first place - lose the LoM as well.

It's all possible.
But I am by now really quite sick of waging war with the whole relations mod and probably need a bit of time off for a while.
Currently it's simple: You lose all your LoMs.

Is there any particular need for making it more fancy than that? I doubt many players will be committing major acts of piracy anyway.
Minor ones perhaps, since attacking enemy ships without having a LoM has been OK until now.
But for the major ones, you pretty much have to do it on purpose or at least intentionally use a false flag.

 

[Grey Roger]

I got the chance to see what happens when an enemy ship surrenders. A pair of pirate ships first had their mainmasts knocked off so they couldn't escape from the lumbering Justinian, then got several broadsides of grapeshot. This being near Puerto Rico, their morale wasn't improved when a small Spanish ship showed up and joined in, probably the only time in a "Hornblower" game when a Spanish ship has been an ally. (This was very early and war hadn't yet started.) Both pirates surrendered, I managed to defeat the first captain in a duel, then the second captain defeated me. Repeatedly. As there were no actively hostile ships left, I'd saved game before boarding, incidentally confirming that the bug in which a surrendered ship appears hostile without actually being hostile has now been fixed. Several reloads later, I decided that this wasn't working so I tried to finish off the pirate, and got a reputation penalty for each hit. Justinian has a lot of guns so that dropped me from "Neutral" to "Swindler" very quickly! After that I kept reloading and boarding until I eventually got lucky.

One very odd thing happened. During direct-sail from Guadeloupe to Jamaica, my flag changed to Dutch. The "Relations" screen showed that I was still supposed to be flying a British flag and the "Quests" screen showed that my served nation was still Britain. A quick bit of flag changing soon put the British flag back and it didn't change again, so I sailed into Jamaica under the red ensign. (Why does Justinian get the British merchant flag?) After saving game to preserve progress, I reloaded my savegame at Guadeloupe and direct-sailed towards Jamaica again, and this time somewhere along the way my flag changed to Spanish. It might have been after a "Land-Ho" or after a level-up - it certainly wasn't a result of a battle because I didn't get into any fights this time.

Here's the savegame at Guadeloupe, in case you want to try it for yourself. This was after installing the 11th August .exe installer and starting a new game.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I got the chance to see what happens when an enemy ship surrenders. A pair of pirate ships first had their mainmasts knocked off so they couldn't escape from the lumbering Justinian, then got several broadsides of grapeshot. This being near Puerto Rico, their morale wasn't improved when a small Spanish ship showed up and joined in, probably the only time in a "Hornblower" game when a Spanish ship has been an ally. (This was very early and war hadn't yet started.) Both pirates surrendered, I managed to defeat the first captain in a duel, then the second captain defeated me. Repeatedly. As there were no actively hostile ships left, I'd saved game before boarding, incidentally confirming that the bug in which a surrendered ship appears hostile without actually being hostile has now been fixed.

Sounds like that part is working now then.

Several reloads later, I decided that this wasn't working so I tried to finish off the pirate, and got a reputation penalty for each hit. Justinian has a lot of guns so that dropped me from "Neutral" to "Swindler" very quickly!

You get 15 reputation loss points for deliberately firing on a surrendered ships and another 1 for each cannonball that hits.
Perhaps a bit much, but it is also quite a mean act, isn't it?

One very odd thing happened. During direct-sail from Guadeloupe to Jamaica, my flag changed to Dutch. The "Relations" screen showed that I was still supposed to be flying a British flag and the "Quests" screen showed that my served nation was still Britain. A quick bit of flag changing soon put the British flag back and it didn't change again, so I sailed into Jamaica under the red ensign. [...] After saving game to preserve progress, I reloaded my savegame at Guadeloupe and direct-sailed towards Jamaica again, and this time somewhere along the way my flag changed to Spanish. It might have been after a "Land-Ho" or after a level-up - it certainly wasn't a result of a battle because I didn't get into any fights this time.

So you're saying that the Nations Relations interface DID indicate you're flying the English flag, but you actually saw a Dutch/Spanish one in the game?
What did compile.log say about the other ships around? I suspect that they would all still see you as English.
That would mean that the Different Flags mod got confused for some reason.
I don't know when or why that happens, but I've definitely seen it once before relatively recently.

Why does Justinian get the British merchant flag?

That is the ship you're sailing yourself, isn't it?
Probably because of this code in PROGRAM\Ships\ships.c:

  if (IsMainCharacter(chr) || IsCompanion(chr))
   {
     // PB: Fly navy flag only if you've got a LoM from that nation -->
     if(iNation >= 0 && iNation < NATIONS_QUANTITY)
       return !HaveLetterOfMarque(iNation);
     // PB: Fly navy flag only if you've got a LoM from that nation -->
   }

Now that you can be in of the service of a nation without having a LoM with Hornblower, that code has to be replaced with:

  if (IsMainCharacter(chr) || IsCompanion(chr))
   {
     // PB: Fly navy flag only if you're officially in the service of that nation -->
     if(iNation >= 0 && iNation < NATIONS_QUANTITY)
       return !IsInServiceOf(iNation);
     // PB: Fly navy flag only if you're officially in the service of that nation <--
   }

Thanks for catching!

 

[Grey Roger]

You get 15 reputation loss points for deliberately firing on a surrendered ships and another 1 for each cannonball that hits.
Perhaps a bit much, but it is also quite a mean act, isn't it?

Yet I don't recall seeing that much of a reputation loss when I opened fire on a friendly ship, though that was in a previous game which wasn't quite as up to date (earlier installer plus 9th August .7z, I believe).

So you're saying that the Nations Relations interface DID indicate you're flying the English flag, but you actually saw a Dutch/Spanish one in the game?
What did compile.log say about the other ships around? I suspect that they would all still see you as English.
That would mean that the Different Flags mod got confused for some reason.

Yes, the "Relations" interface said I was flying a British flag but the ship showed a Dutch one (or Spanish in the re-run). I didn't see the log files at the time. Nor did I see any other ships in the area. By the time I encountered the pirate ships later in the first attempt I'd already hoisted the British flag again, and I didn't continue after the Spanish flag appeared the second time. But something definitely got confused.

What do these lines in "Ships.c" do?

   if (CheckShipAttribute(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseMerchantFlag") == true && sti(GetLocalShipAttrib(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseMerchantFlag")) == true) return true;
   if (CheckShipAttribute(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseNavalFlag"  ) == true && sti(GetLocalShipAttrib(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseNavalFlag"  )) == true) return false;

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Yet I don't recall seeing that much of a reputation loss when I opened fire on a friendly ship, though that was in a previous game which wasn't quite as up to date (earlier installer plus 9th August .7z, I believe).

In previous games, friendly ships would ALWAYS turn hostile if you hit them.
Now they don't. Which means you continue to get rep loss points instead of just the one while they're still friendly....

Yes, the "Relations" interface said I was flying a British flag but the ship showed a Dutch one (or Spanish in the re-run). I didn't see the log files at the time. Nor did I see any other ships in the area. By the time I encountered the pirate ships later in the first attempt I'd already hoisted the British flag again, and I didn't continue after the Spanish flag appeared the second time. But something definitely got confused.

If you spot it again, try to check compile.log straight away to see if it is indeed purely a graphical thing.
You say this happens after sailing somewhere in DirectSail, right? Maybe that needs a full refresh of the flags to get everything correct again.
If this is indeed the problem, we'll need a separate Bug Tracker entry for it.

What do these lines in "Ships.c" do?

   if (CheckShipAttribute(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseMerchantFlag") == true && sti(GetLocalShipAttrib(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseMerchantFlag")) == true) return true;
   if (CheckShipAttribute(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseNavalFlag"  ) == true && sti(GetLocalShipAttrib(arShip, rShip, "Flags.UseNavalFlag"  )) == true) return false;

They're overrides so you can set certain ships to ALWAYS show a merchant or naval flag.
The merchant ones are used for the Wicked Wench, HMS Endeavour and Amsterdam because they're specifically merchant ships and would look wrong with a navy flag.
The navy ones are set for HMS Interceptor, USS Constitution, HMS Dauntless, HMS Victory, HMS Surprise and PO_Trinity.

While it would of course be possible to add such attributes for all ships,
the idea is that the player generally won't show a navy flag unless they're a privateer or navy officer, rather than having it based on ship type.
The change I suggested above should fix Hornblower without using any hard-coded overrides.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Here's the savegame at Guadeloupe, in case you want to try it for yourself. This was after installing the 11th August .exe installer and starting a new game.

I've just tried the whole route from Guadeloupe to Jamaica in DirectSail but my flag remained correctly English all the way.
There were a lot of reloads though: Nevis, Puerto Rico and Isla Mona.
So I couldn't replicate the problem this time. I expected it to be quite a random issue in the first place.
I definitely recommend you keep an eye out for it and check compile.log when you do run into it again.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

All latest changes to this now included in here: http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/build-14-beta-4-internal-wip-for-testing.25696/

I have heard no further feedback on the specifics of the consequences of player actions on nation relations, so I am assuming you testers are OK with how it works now.
But as usual, if you do have any questions, comments, or concerns, SPEAK UP!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So you guys have played with this for well over a month now.
Comments? And does anything need to be simplified for Arcade Game Mode?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So you guys have played with this for well over a month now.
Comments? And does anything need to be simplified for Arcade Game Mode?

I'll repeat my question. I still require any and all feedback on everything related to Nation and Sea Relations.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I can imagine that right now the new Nations Relations system is quite complex for players.
That is why I have started on adding explanations into the game that are hard to miss, but even so, there might be players out there who would prefer something simpler.
This could be linked to Arcade Game Mode and/or a separate toggle.

Some things I can think of to simplify things:
- Skip allied nations' relations being affected through your actions (e.g. Capture Dutch ship, England becomes Wary because they're alied)
- Automatically hoist your Served Nation Flag when your false flag is recognized to prevent the player forgetting to change flags afterwards and getting a HUGE penalty for this act of piracy

Are there any other points that perhaps should be simplified on?
I can think of stuff by the top of my head, but in the end it is up to what the PLAYERS want.
There's little point in my trying to second guess the players' wishes and waste my time changing things that aren't needed or appreciated!

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I do not understand this new system as I have not been playing it until the last few days.

1) What happens to a LOM if you buy more than one and nations turn hostile and then turn friendly again? Is the LOM lost or does it come back into effect?

2) If a nation is hostile I can not trade with them. OK. What happens if they turn friendly, I go there to trade, and they turn hostile while I am there?

 

[Jason]

So you guys have played with this for well over a month now.
Comments? And does anything need to be simplified for Arcade Game Mode?

Pieter,

Work has intervened and makes it difficult to focus on this right now, perhaps next week.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Work has intervened and makes it difficult to focus on this right now, perhaps next week.

No worries; thanks for checking in!

1) What happens to a LOM if you buy more than one and nations turn hostile and then turn friendly again? Is the LOM lost or does it come back into effect?

If you've got a LoM, you keep it like you always did. Unless you do anything that is considered a bad act of piracy, such as attacking a nation that you've got a LoM with or one of its allies.
But if England and Holland are allied, you can get a LoM with both. Then if they turn hostile, the LoM stays.
Problem then is that you can not attack England, Holland nor any of either of their allies without losing one of your LoMs.

So if that doesn't give you enough valid targets anymore, it might be a good time to choose one of the two and leave the service of the other one.
But you could even still keep both and only sink/capture pirates. That is always possible.

Also, since your served nation is Personal Nation when you have multiple LoMs, your nation relations do NOT follow that of any other nation any longer.
So when Holland and England turn hostile, their relations to you personally remain unchanged and you keep whatever rank you had.

2) If a nation is hostile I can not trade with them. OK. What happens if they turn friendly, I go there to trade, and they turn hostile while I am there?

That sounds like quite an unlikely scenario, but could theoretically happen.
This would ONLY affect you if you were serving one specific nation and your relations are tied to that nation and that makes you now hostile to another nation.
That applies to loyal privateers and naval officers and non-personal starting characters, but NOT if you have two LoMs (see above).

Even if this does affect you, the same would happen that always used to happen in such a case:
You'll just be treated as hostile by the merchants in that town, but that doesn't need to stop you from dealing with them because:
- If you were flying the flag of that nation, it'll be a false flag that still has a chance to fool them and a chance to be detected)
- If your reputation is high enough, you can still deal with them; especially if you're a Hero
- Once you reach Commerce level 5, you can convince hostile traders to deal with you as well, though for reduced profits on your part

Does that make any sense to you?

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I only used LOMs to keep score so as long as they are not lost it's all good.

This actually did happen to me. I visited Willemstad to get the merchant papers and they changed relations while I was there. All went well while I was there and I was able to sail away ok, but local Dutch ships were now hostile. When I noticed that I checked the relations and then found out about the change.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I only used LOMs to keep score so as long as they are not lost it's all good.

Should indeed be OK. If you've got one LoM, your loyalties lie with that one nation and there is no reason to lose it.
If you've got two LoMs, then when nations' relations change, your relations remain the same so there is also no reason to lose them.

This actually did happen to me. I visited Willemstad to get the merchant papers and they changed relations while I was there. All went well while I was there and I was able to sail away ok, but local Dutch ships were now hostile. When I noticed that I checked the relations and then found out about the change.

Even unlikely thing do happen. And only the Tavern News and F2>Nations Relations tell you when things change.
That's just one of the added challenges of playing with Changing Nation Relations.

I'll definitely be curious to hear more of your endeavours with the new update and Changing Nation Relations on.
While I think it should be OK, you never do know until somebody tries and I don't think anyone really did so far.

Anyway, if you do get two LoMs again, your relations shouldn't change and you can use your personal flag,
so nations turning hostile while you're in one of their towns should not be an issue then.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I have no LOMs in this game as I am just sailing around testing frame rates and stuttering.

I did have another surprise last night. I went to Willemstad after successfully completing a treasure quest, sold the treasure, and then got that merchant paper. Then picked up a merchant run to Santo Domingo. All went well except for a long storm until I arrived. When my ship got in range the fort opened fire! We were friendly when I left port. I checked the relations and they were mad at me now. Well, the Heavy East Indiaman is a pretty tuff ship so I just ignored them and sailed into port and dropped anchor.
The cargo was accepted but they would not trade with me or repair my ship. When I left I went straight to the world map before they could damage my ship even more.

Since I forgot and left my nationality as French the nations become friendly or hostile according to what the French are doing.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I did have another surprise last night. I went to Willemstad after successfully completing a treasure quest, sold the treasure, and then got that merchant paper. Then picked up a merchant run to Santo Domingo. All went well except for a long storm until I arrived. When my ship got in range the fort opened fire! We were friendly when I left port. I checked the relations and they were mad at me now. Well, the Heavy East Indiaman is a pretty tuff ship so I just ignored them and sailed into port and dropped anchor.
The cargo was accepted but they would not trade with me or repair my ship. When I left I went straight to the world map before they could damage my ship even more.

Things like that can indeed happen. If a nation is hostile, then they WILL accept your quest cargo, but otherwise deal with you the same they would with any hostile character.
So that at least sounds normal.

However, the chance of relations changing at all is supposed to be 10 in 1000 (=1%) each day.
So that should be about 3-4 relation changes on average per game year. Do you seem to have them much more often?

Since I forgot and left my nationality as French the nations become friendly or hostile according to what the French are doing.

You mean you're still flying a French flag? You can easily hoist any other one, of course.
Of course if you started as a French character, indeed you would be considered a loyal Frenchman at game start and follow French relations.

There are several ways to get out of that though:
1. Get a single LoM from the nation you WANT to be loyal to; this will override your French loyalties
2. Get multiple LoMs, which will set your loyalty to Personal Nation and effectively stop your relations from following any nation at all
3. Commit enough or worse enough acts of piracy and/or join the pirates; that will set your loyalty to the Pirates and ALSO stop your relations from following that of any nation
For this last one, you may also be recognized ashore for your piratey acts in non-pirate towns, because... well... pirate.

Or just execute this through console if you don't want to get multiple LoMs:

SetServedNation(PERSONAL_NATION);

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I have not played a game year yet and there have been 3-4 relation changes. The Dutch and Portagee became friendly with the French and then the Spanish just became hostile to the French.

I am flying a personal flag but they seem to see me as French. Option #2 sounds best.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I have not played a game year yet and there have been 3-4 relation changes. The Dutch and Portagee became friendly with the French and then the Spanish just became hostile to the French.

If it indeed seems too often, we could decrease the chance value.
I deliberately coded it so that it should accept chances lower than 1% too.

I am flying a personal flag but they seem to see me as French.

Check F2>Questbook. The nation in yellow is the one the game considers you to be loyal to.
I suspect that would be France for you?