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Solved Ship Cannons "Realistic" Statistics

Pieter Boelen said:
Sound about right. But with the pirates getting more MaxCrew, what about you suggesting something similar for France?
Click to expand...
I was simply thinking of giving France a higher multiplier for MaxCrew. Anyway, I've translated my suggestions into some proposed values below:
Code: 
    //English
    shipstatsmult.n0.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n0.Weight        =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n0.Capacity    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n0.MaxCrew    =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n0.MinCrew    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n0.SpeedRate    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n0.TurnRate    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n0.Price        =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n0.HP            =    1.15;

    //French
    shipstatsmult.n1.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n1.Weight        =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n1.Capacity    =    0.85;
    shipstatsmult.n1.MaxCrew    =    1.15;
    shipstatsmult.n1.MinCrew    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n1.SpeedRate    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n1.TurnRate    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n1.Price        =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n1.HP            =    1.00;

    //Spanish
    shipstatsmult.n2.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n2.Weight        =    1.15;
    shipstatsmult.n2.Capacity    =    1.15;
    shipstatsmult.n2.MaxCrew    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n2.MinCrew    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n2.SpeedRate    =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n2.TurnRate    =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n2.Price        =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n2.HP            =    1.05;

    //Pirate
    shipstatsmult.n3.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Weight        =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Capacity    =    0.80;
    shipstatsmult.n3.MaxCrew    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n3.MinCrew    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n3.SpeedRate    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n3.TurnRate    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n3.Price        =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n3.HP            =    0.80;

    //Dutch
    shipstatsmult.n4.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n4.Weight        =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n4.Capacity    =    1.10;
    shipstatsmult.n4.MaxCrew    =    0.90;
    shipstatsmult.n4.MinCrew    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n4.SpeedRate    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n4.TurnRate    =    0.95;
    shipstatsmult.n4.Price        =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n4.HP            =    1.00;

    //Portuguese
    shipstatsmult.n5.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n5.Weight        =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n5.Capacity    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n5.MaxCrew    =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n5.MinCrew    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n5.SpeedRate    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n5.TurnRate    =    1.15;
    shipstatsmult.n5.Price        =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n5.HP            =    0.95;

    //United States
    shipstatsmult.n6.MaxCaliber    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n6.Weight        =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n6.Capacity    =    0.90;
    shipstatsmult.n6.MaxCrew    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n6.MinCrew    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n6.SpeedRate    =    1.15;
    shipstatsmult.n6.TurnRate    =    1.00;
    shipstatsmult.n6.Price        =    1.05;
    shipstatsmult.n6.HP            =    1.10;
I've given the US a reduced capacity to balance out their perks, and slightly reduced the Portuguese max crew boost to make the French advantage more distinctive.
Any thoughts on these values?
 
Based on that, I think I'd prefer a French design ship for pirating over a pirate design one. Quite a bit more MaxCrew and just as fast.
More expensive, perhaps, but since pirate shipyards don't sell to non-pirates, French design ships would be easier to get.

As for the Portuguese TurnRate bonus, how would you make use of that without additional speed?

I put your suggestions in a spreadsheet: see attached. It averages out the different modifiers, indicating which nationality has the biggest advantage.
Not sure how "weight" is an advantage or not, but it doesn't influence the outcome much either way.
It also calculates a "quality/price" ratio. The higher the value there, the more well-spent your money is.
That's the idea anyway. Anything making sense there? :confused:
 

Attachments

  • ShipDesigns.zip
    6.6 KB · Views: 74
Pieter Boelen said:
Based on that, I think I'd prefer a French design ship for pirating over a pirate design one. Quite a bit more MaxCrew and just as fast.
More expensive, perhaps, but since pirate shipyards don't sell to non-pirates, French design ships would be easier to get.
Click to expand...
That way I think of it, navy ships would have both sailors and marines on board, and would be very likely to repel any pirate boarders with ease.
Pirates, on the other hand, probably wouldn't have designated 'marines' of their own, and certainly wouldn't have considerably more crew than an equivalent navy ship.
They mostly prey on merchants anyway, who carry fewer men on board so would be easier to capture.

With this in mind, I'd consider a pirate ship's main advantages to be speed and agility. That means a higher speed and turn rate, a lower weight value and lower capacity.
Perhaps we should increase the speed boost to 1.10, and reduce the weight to 0.90 to reflect this.
Lower HP, meanwhile, would come from a lack of professional maintenance compared to a navy ship.
Does that reasoning make more sense?

Pieter Boelen said:
As for the Portuguese TurnRate bonus, how would you make use of that without additional speed?
Click to expand...
They could outmanoeuvre any opponents to get more broadsides fired at them?
I just think the speed boost is already used quite a bit, so we need to have at least one nation with an average speed rate.

Pieter Boelen said:
I put your suggestions in a spreadsheet: see attached. It averages out the different modifiers, indicating which nationality has the biggest advantage.
Not sure how "weight" is an advantage or not, but it doesn't influence the outcome much either way.
It also calculates a "quality/price" ratio. The higher the value there, the more well-spent your money is.
That's the idea anyway. Anything making sense there? :confused:
Click to expand...
Hmm. What this doesn't take into account is that a higher weight and min crew value counts as a disadvantage, so some of the 'average quality' values are slightly skewed.
Maybe inverting those values in the spreadsheet would give us a better comparison?
 
True, all true.

See attached with inverted weight and min crew values. If I analyse that correctly:

- England: highest quality ships, but comparatively expensive and not the best value for money.

- Pirate: worst quality ships, but best value for money.

- Portuguese: equal quality ships to England, but much better value for money. Almost the best, in fact.

- French: Best MaxCrew and SpeedRate bonus makes them the best for boarding. Near-average quality, not so good value for money unless you want to do boarding.

- Spanish: Low SpeedRate and TurnRate with increase cargo capacity make these more suitable for trading than anything else.
Average quality, not so good value for money unless you want to do trading.

- Dutch: Pretty much average all across the board.

- American: Well, fast and better strength than most. Other than that, nothing much to say.
 

Attachments

  • ShipDesigns.zip
    6.6 KB · Views: 71
OK, well I've made a few changes to try to balance out the 'average quality' a bit more. See below (copied/pasted straight from Excel; very cool trick :cheeky):
upload_2013-8-23_22-51-45.png


The whole "value for money" thing just doesn't seem right to me, but I can't figure out why. Do we want all the ships to be 100% value for money, or is the variation a good thing?
 
Nothing technically wrong with variation. If you're happy with it, I'm happy with it. :doff
 
OK then. Anybody else have any comments on the proposed modifiers?
Remember the Weight and MinCrew values in the table above are both inverted.
 
Armada, were you going to make a modified ships_init.c with these changes or did you want me to put it in there?
 
Well, since you asked...
 

Attachments

  • Ships_init.c
    700.6 KB · Views: 93
Calibre changes? Besides the US now having the same max calibre as everyone else, I don't think any more changes were planned.
As I said, I'm not sure where it would be either fair or useful to increase or decrease the calibre for an entire nation. :shrug
 
I wasn't talking about the national modifiers anymore, we settled that already.
Just wanted to bring up the point from the opening post again. This just doesn't look right, does it?
Code: 
refShip.Cannon = CANNON_TYPE_CARRONADE_LBS24;
refShip.MaxCaliber = 9;
 
Oh, that! Yes, that's unusual compared to most other assigned calibres.
 
That's what I been saying >.> lol well 1/2 of what I've been saying. Also been saying to increase the maximum caliburs so ships can upgrade if they wanted to but after hearing Hylie (? Think I spelled that right) or someone's explination of why you guys(and gals?) had it set to the way it was so it would encourage more "If you want bigger guns, get a bigger ship" type thing, so I didn't mess with any caliber changes.
 
I think all that would be needed is to address those assignments mistmatches.
But what would be the most realistic? Increasing the MaxCaliber or decrease the default installed cannons type?
 
Over time the caliber size has been going down on the smaller ships. There was a time when little frigates were carrying 32 pounders when in reality they would sink from the weight. Currently the brigs have 9s and 12s if I remember correctly, which is still huge for such tiny boats. When the Wicked Wench carries 18 pounders it seems wrong to have a brig that's only 1/3rd as big to be carrying 12 pounders.
 
That example above with MaxCaliber = 9 is a brig as well. So you're saying that setting that up with CANNON_TYPE_LONG_LBS18 would STILL be too much?
 
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