Tool for making characters and converting VRML files to gm

High Sea Lass · Jun 7, 2005

Only just now noticed this:

The only male figure that on import to the Tool really works 100% with the animation is Blaze himself - the others gets more or less distortion to them... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huhh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :eek:

k" border="0" alt="huhh.gif" />

The most noticeable part are the fingers and hands - trying to load, say, "an overloaded governor" or such can severly make it look painful when they move about. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/piratesing.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shock

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My thought is this - is there somewhere in the file of the model a "size", such as the "internal" model height you can specify in the game? It would seem to me that the man skeleton must actually be adjusted to suit each male as they come in various shapes, widths and heights, whereas the ladies tend to be very close together, although not 100% there either... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :shrug

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Any thoughts about this? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> I hope it can be easily fixed. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

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Inez Dias · Jun 7, 2005

I've never noticed that effect, but then I've not played much with modified models.
As to your supposition: The model size is in the file, but the tool sets that correctly on VRML import, so that can't be the reason. And the skeleton is in the .an file which is the same for all the males. I'll check ASAP, but probably that won't be before the weekend.

EDIT: A quick test with huber_eng shows that his fingers look painful even with the *original* model. Do you see that also or have I messed something else up ?

CatalinaThePirate · Jun 7, 2005

Some of the models have that problem on occasion, and I've often wondered why. The merchant model - Gheerlof the Dutch merchant, for instance - also has that trouble. If you have him as an officer, you notice it most when he wipes his brow... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

High Sea Lass · Jun 7, 2005

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 12:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: A quick test with huber_eng shows that his fingers look painful even with the *original* model. Do you see that also or have I messed something else up ?<div align="right">[snapback]110847[/snapback]</div></div>
Inez, that is the effect I get too. Even more visible with scaling up, of course. The only one that actually works 100% if Blaze.gm - everyone else suffers from distortions.

True, Cat. They all use the <b>man.an</b>, but <i>somehow</i> they tweak it - how, I have no idea. It is quite easy, however, to see the locators in the GM Viewer varying quite a lot. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

But I suspect each model have got something in them to tell the animation "this bit of the skeleton goes here" or some such... Heh, technical terms, eh? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :rolleyes:

" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

I am still learning all these things, but it seems like the only logical explanation to me. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

Inez Dias · Jun 7, 2005

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 12:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: A quick test with huber_eng shows that his fingers look painful even with the *original* model. Do you see that also or have I messed something else up ?<div align="right">[snapback]110847[/snapback]</div></div>
Inez, that is the effect I get too. Even more visible with scaling up, of course. The only one that actually works 100% if Blaze.gm - everyone else suffers from distortions.
</div>
Well, if that problem exists with unmodified models, I'm not sure we can fix it. But I'll try some resizing of the animation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>True, Cat. They all use the <b>man.an</b>, but <i>somehow</i> they tweak it - how, I have no idea. It is quite easy, however, to see the locators in the GM Viewer varying quite a lot. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /></div>
The locators have nothing to do with the skeleton and animations.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>But I suspect each model have got something in them to tell the animation "this bit of the skeleton goes here" or some such... Heh, technical terms, eh? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :rolleyes:

" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /></div>
That's the bone numbers. Each point in the model has a bone number which tells the engine what transformations to apply to it when animating. (So to say, which bone the particular point will "follow".)

High Sea Lass · Jun 7, 2005

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 04:06 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Inez, that is the effect I get too. Even more visible with scaling up, of course. The only one that actually works 100% if Blaze.gm - everyone else suffers from distortions.</div>
Well, if that problem exists with unmodified models, I'm not sure we can fix it. But I'll try some resizing of the animation. </div>
This is where I believe each indiviual figure somewhere in their file stores this data - question is where to look for this? Perhaps near the "bone numbers" themselves?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 04:06 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>True, Cat. They all use the <b>man.an</b>, but <i>somehow</i> they tweak it - how, I have no idea. It is quite easy, however, to see the locators in the GM Viewer varying quite a lot. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" /></div>
The locators have nothing to do with the skeleton and animations. </div>
True, but they show how much those points vary from model to model, hence follows that so do the skeleton, no? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" /> After all, Fred Bob hasn't got the same locators as Blaze. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/no.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :no

" border="0" alt="no.gif" />

And somewhere, as with the locators, this data is kept, I am certain thereof... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 04:06 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 02:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>But I suspect each model have got something in them to tell the animation "this bit of the skeleton goes here" or some such... Heh, technical terms, eh? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :rolleyes:

" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /></div>
That's the bone numbers. Each point in the model has a bone number which tells the engine what transformations to apply to it when animating. (So to say, which bone the particular point will "follow".)<div align="right">[snapback]110883[/snapback]</div></div>
Exactly - and somewhere there is data that specifies how much to tweak the skeleton so the models don't distort in the game, since whenever any other model male other than Blaze.gm is loaded with the man.an selected they will not work properly, neither in the Tool nor in the game when put back. This means that somehow this "skeleton offset data" is replaced by Blaze's offset data, does it not? <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

For example, a "wide" man suddenly becomes less wide, while a skinny guy finds himself growing wider. This must mean the original .gm somewhere stores this offset from the "base skeleton", since the .an file is the same for each model - the .an files merely tells the skeleton the angles and such, whereas the skeleton itself may vary in size (probably in all 3 dimensions...) within a range of models (men, women, etc).

I have no clue to the .gm file format, but it seems to me that it has to keep this information in each file to prevent the animation from distorting the model.

As far as I understand this - if we can find this data we no longer need to make a new .an for each new model; instead this data would change to specify the changes in the skeleton.

I have no idea how difficult this is to achive, or if it is possible, but that is where the key is, I believe.

Inez Dias · Jun 7, 2005

I think you misunderstood me - or I misunderstood you - I had that effect with the *unmodified* stock models: not converted to VRML and back, but fresh as they come from CD. Maybe Akella just didn't care they don't fit perfectly, because in stock game they only do a limited subset of the animations anyway. But I might be wrong and have something messed up in my game setup - so please confirm if you see the fingers distorted with stock models also or only after converting them forth and back.

As for gm file format: I have it figured out except for a few numbers - you can see it all in the View / Details menu of the tool: that's the raw data in the file, translated to text format. Those numbers I do know the meaning of I have labeled appropriately, those I don't know just have a random letter (a, r1 and t come to mind, and I think that's about it). So if there's any information in the files that the tool misses it'll be in those numbers. You're absolutely welcome to have a look and see if they're any different for the different sized models.

Still, you're right insofar as *we* could use the size information to tweak the skeleton to fit better - but that *does* mean we'll need different .an files for different models (and those are large, as you have noticed - maybe it's for that reason that Akella didn't provide different ones).

And don't get me wrong - I appreciate your comments very much. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

High Sea Lass · Jun 7, 2005

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 08:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I think you misunderstood me - or I misunderstood you - I had that effect with the *unmodified* stock models</div>
Exactly! Heheh!

What I meant was; load fatman.gm with the animation set to man.an into the Tool - and it will distort. I never convert these to VRML. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/no.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :no

" border="0" alt="no.gif" /> But, if you export that freshy loaded .gm <i>back</i> to the game, then the distortion will be even more evident - hence my conclusion that that "offset" info is stored with the .gm file and thus replaced with the "default one". <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> Blaze is the single model where these "offsets" matches up 100%. Any other stock model will not view correctly in the Tool, as you say.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 08:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>You're absolutely welcome to have a look and see if they're any different for the different sized models.</div>
Heh, maybe I'll try to look at the details sometime... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> When I feel like doing this: <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/modding.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :modding

" border="0" alt="modding.gif" />

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

:" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />

Seriously, I will try to take a look - with some nblind luck I may stumble on something, heheh! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mybad.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :facepalm

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 08:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Still, you're right insofar as *we* could use the size information to tweak the skeleton to fit better - but that *does* mean we'll need different .an files for different models (and those are large, as you have noticed - maybe it's for that reason that Akella didn't provide different ones).</div>
Eh, not correct. Look at all male models - thick as thin, tall and short - they all share the single man.an file. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> All females, Danielle as well as the towngirls, share the woman.an file. So, somewhere hidden in the .gm file itself is the key to using <i>fewer</i> .an files when resizing, as it would be in these keys somewhere in the .gm file, not in the .an itself. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/yes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :yes

" border="0" alt="yes.gif" />

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 08:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>And don't get me wrong - I appreciate your comments very much. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /><div align="right">[snapback]111002[/snapback]</div></div>
Same here. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/me.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :onya

" border="0" alt="me.gif" /> I hope we can crack this nut and make an easier way to edit <i>any</i> model in the game, even the towngirls with their skirts - and (long, <i>long</i> shot here!) <i>maybe</i> figure out the animation format in the process, heheh! <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile2.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

)" border="0" alt="smile2.gif" />

Inez Dias · Jun 7, 2005

My point was that if unmodified stock models get distoreted (in the game, too, not only in the tool) it can't be because we're missing something in the gm files: if the information was there, the game engine would use it, would it not ? Maybe those models *are* imperfectly bound to the skeleton from the start. (Meaning that some parts really have wrong bone numbers.) Only in stock game that doesn't matter because they're not used as player models.
But I'll keep your hypothesis in mind and check if some of the unknown numbers in the gm files could be related to size as soon as I have time.

About animations: I *have* the animation format figured out, too - I can tell you the meaning of every single byte in the .an file (you can see that in the tool's animation window, btw) - only I can't convert it to any common modeler format because I don't know any of *those*! (And neither have I come up with an idea how to make it easier to edit animations with the tool - but they *can* be edited.)

CatalinaThePirate · Jun 7, 2005

No as I recall it was that way in stock - and although I don't know much of anything about modeling, I wonder if it is due to something that Maya 4.5 (which Akella used) does if you try to use a specific body type but somehow expand it (like make him more <i>rotund</i>)... <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":?" border="0" alt="unsure.gif" />

High Sea Lass · Jun 7, 2005

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 10:11 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>if the information was there, the game engine would use it, would it not ?</div>
Yes, exactly - that <i>is</i> what the game do, <i>except</i> for a file you load into the tool, then save it back as a .gm again - without touching it otherwise. Therefore, that piece of information must be somewhere in the .gm file itself, and be altered when the .gm is resaved. I will look into what differs a loaded and resaved .gm from the original.

An untouched .gm, like fatman.gm, is not distorted in the game. One loaded into the tool and resaved, however, will be distorted.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Inez Dias @ Jun 7 2005, 10:11 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>About animations: I *have* the animation format figured out, too<div align="right">[snapback]111033[/snapback]</div></div>
Sorry. <img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :eek:

ops" border="0" alt="blush.gif" /> I will try to look into formats that may be out there, but I suspect there is few, if any. My bad.

Inez Dias · Jun 7, 2005

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(High Sea Lass @ Jun 7 2005, 10:29 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, exactly - that <i>is</i> what the game do, <i>except</i> for a file you load into the tool, then save it back as a .gm again - without touching it otherwise. </div>
Ah - there is the misunderstanding: I was under the impression it's distorted even if I never load it into the tool. But if that's not so I must have had some other settings wrong.
In that case there could indeed be something in the gm files that makes the difference.

High Sea Lass · Jun 7, 2005

<img src="http://www.piratesahoy.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/oops3.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=" :eek: