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Released Endeavour update

Hylie Pistof

Hylie Pistof

Curmudgeon
QA Tester
Storm Modder
Pirate Legend
This started out as a simple spanker fix but, well...................... :wp I am not familiar with this ship and want to get her right, but am not sure just how she should look.

The first screenie is point "A", and the 2nd is a recent reference pic. The square sails are ok, the spanker is fixed, and the rear stays are ok. I'm working on the front stays and wondering what to do with the jib sails.

I've looked at pictures and drawings of the Victory and it seems the sails varied quite a bit over the years. I'm just not sure about what to do with the jib sails. And then comes the ropes and rigging.
 
Wow that's a big boat! I opened the post expecting it to be about the bark Endeavour hehe

http://www.modelships.de/Museums_and_replicas/Endeavour/gIMGP3577.jpg
 
Unfortunately, this is the best reference pic I could find for the sail plan: http://images1.wikia...uch_the_ETC.png
While it doesn't give much away, it does seem to show that our model's bowsprit could be a bit too short.
Compare your screenies to this photo of the HMS Victory, and the difference in bowsprit length is clear.
I can change it to the right sort of length if you like. It should give you more space to spread out the jibs, too.

Speaking of the jibs, I have a feeling the Endeavour/Dauntless should only have one or two, as opposed to the Victory's three.
It all depends, though, on the sail state in the reference images, so it's probably not so black-and-white.
However, if you do adjust the FirstRate/Victory models, the jibs should definitely be better spaced along the bowsprit.

@KrisWood: LOL, yep she's just a wee bit bigger... :shock
 
I just found this site and after looking at just the paintings methinks I'll leave the bowsprit on the Endeavour and her sisters alone and use two jib sails. Image Search Results for hms victory

It looks like the Victory used two chin sails and three jib sails. It also seems that the rigging changed over the years, confusing things further.
 
Hylie Pistoff said:
I just found this site and after looking at just the paintings methinks I'll leave the bowsprit on the Endeavour and her sisters alone and use two jib sails. Image Search Results for hms victory

It looks like the Victory used two chin sails and three jib sails. It also seems that the rigging changed over the years, confusing things further.
Click to expand...

It all depended on the conditions. a sprits'l ("chin sail?") is useless close hulled or running, but the foretopmast stay'sl (commonly mistaken as a jib) and two jibs (the three sails can be called "heads'ls") could be set under most conditions and should be used on the model. (I guess you should keep the sprit and sprit tops'ls as well)

It should basically be rigged identically to the Victory ingame, and the historic Victory. Feel free to ask if you have any rigging questions at all.

Don't use any Disney pictures as references; those guys have absolutely no idea at all what they're doing. Take the linked to reference picture for example- the wind is going in two separate, opposite directions in the same frame.
 
After spending some time looking at all of those pictures I went back to the game and that jib is too short. It is supposed to have three sections and only has two. But, there are at least 5 versions of this ship in POTC and do we really want them to all be identical except for paint and textures?

I'm thinking of possibly making one of them without the stays between the masts, for instance.

I don't know if I will ever get the terminology down. :?
 
The jibboom and bowsprit were always only two sections... could you post the reference picture?

And you shouldn't take out any stays; without them the masts would fall over. (That is generally to be avoided)
 
Post Captain said:
Take the linked to reference picture for example- the wind is going in two separate, opposite directions in the same frame.
Click to expand...
Holy crap, how did I not notice that before?! I know Disney isn't exactly very well 'informed', but this is plain ridiculous. :blink:

Hylie Pistoff said:
After spending some time looking at all of those pictures I went back to the game and that jib is too short. It is supposed to have three sections and only has two. But, there are at least 5 versions of this ship in POTC and do we really want them to all be identical except for paint and textures?

I'm thinking of possibly making one of them without the stays between the masts, for instance.
Click to expand...
'Jib' or 'bowsprit'? Not sure which you mean, now. The terminology certainly does get confusing. :eek:ops2
Based on the large photo I linked to before, it looks like Victory's bowsprit does have two sections, but they're both longer than what's currently in the game.

As for the models' individuality, don't forget that the Endeavour/Dauntless hull is slightly different to the Victory hull (cannons, quarterdeck etc), and the flags are not the same, either.
Removing stay sails would just leave a big gap between masts, and technically should affect the ship's handling, so it's probably best not to remove any.

EDIT: @Post Captain: So the stays help to keep the masts upright? I guess that means the stock 'Manowar' model is in trouble, then... xD:
 
Post Captain: Please click on the link in post #4 and take a look. There are even some 100+ year old photos that look to me to be showing three big trees extending waaay out there in front of the ship.

And I was talking about stay sails, I think.......


Hmm, well ok, but what about the French and American versions? And are there also Spanish and Portagee versions? I really don't know anything about these giant floating cities.
 
Were you talking about the dolphin striker and flag pole? (The vertical assembly) Those should be there. I may have been mistaken and thought you meant a third spar bent to the end of the jibboom.
I believe you said something about ropes (actually lines, not ropes) If you want, I could tell you what all of the important lines that should go on the model are and where they should go.

And to Armada: The stays' sole purpose is actually to keep the masts up, and the masts couldn't stay up at sea (or in port, in many cases) without them. The sails on them are just a convenient and useful afterthought. The same thing goes for the ratlines on the shrouds.The bowsprit is the spar below the jibboom, which attaches directly to the hull. The jibboom is the outer spar that is on top of the bowsprit. (fore stays'ls are bent to stays that end on the bowsprit, and jibs are bent to stays that end on the jibboom)

If you wanted to add more variety, you could add royals to one of the models, I guess. Right now all the stays'ls on the model are useful in most conditions. One other thing you could also do is only add the second sprits'l (sprit tops'l) to only one of the versions, as those started falling out of favor around the time of the American Revolution. Remember that this vessel would have been a second rate instead of a first rate, and therefore not perfectly identical to Victory.
 
Post Captain said:
And to Armada: The stays' sole purpose is actually to keep the masts up, and the masts couldn't stay up at sea (or in port, in many cases) without them. The sails on them are just a convenient and useful afterthought. The same thing goes for the ratlines on the shrouds.The bowsprit is the spar below the jibboom, which attaches directly to the hull. The jibboom is the outer spar that is on top of the bowsprit. (fore stays'ls are bent to stays that end on the bowsprit, and jibs are bent to stays that end on the jibboom)
Click to expand...
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.
That just goes to highlight the importance of Hylie's rigging work on our ships, since many of them still don't have the essential ropes or lines that make them seaworthy.

Post Captain said:
If you wanted to add more variety, you could add royals to one of the models, I guess. Right now all the stays'ls on the model are useful in most conditions. One other thing you could also do is only add the second sprits'l (sprit tops'l) to only one of the versions, as those started falling out of favor around the time of the American Revolution. Remember that this vessel would have been a second rate instead of a first rate, and therefore not perfectly identical to Victory.
Click to expand...
Royals would be extra sails at the top of each mast, right? That would certainly work well for at least a couple of the FirstRate models.
Why would the Endeavour class as a 2nd Rate, though? Disney (very loosely) based her on the Victory, and our model has 108 guns and was adapted from the Victory model.

@Hylie: In any case, I'd say you should go by the Victory's rigging and mast layout in her current state, which is based on her appearance at Trafalgar.
That's within the game's time frame, but the photos you've link to are too 'modern', ironically.

As for other nations, I definitely think the Spanish should have a version of the FirstRate, but not the Portuguese.
From what little I know, there were very few, if any, Portuguese 1st Rate vessels built.
 
Royals aren't really "extra,"* but yes, they are squares'ls that go directly above the t'gallants (they aren't necessarily at the top- you could set smaller sails, such as skys'ls and moonrakers above the royals in very light breezes). The Royal yard should be above the t'gallantmast shrouds.
I think it's a second rate... I only counted 96 guns that would have counted towards its complement- stern chasers, bow chasers, and some guns on the fore and quarter decks wouldn't have counted. Generally a first rate has over 100 guns.

I don't think the Portuguese had very many first rates at all at the time this vessel would have been made.

*until the end of the Napoleonic era the royal yards were generally (but not always) taken down when not in use- less weight aloft improved performance and they were relatively easy to put back.
 
Post Captain said:
I think it's a second rate... I only counted 96 guns that would have counted towards its complement- stern chasers, bow chasers, and some guns on the fore and quarter decks wouldn't have counted. Generally a first rate has over 100 guns.
Click to expand...
Well let's put it this way: our Victory model has 106 guns (though I think we coded her to use 104 by mistake...); the Dauntless has 102 and Endeavour has 108.
All three variants have two bow and two stern chasers, for gameplay purposes. They all have identical main gun batteries on the three gundecks.
However, the Dauntless and Endeavour both have two guns on their quarterdeck, and the latter has four more on the fore deck and two by the stairs.
Looking at it in that sense, the Dauntless and Endeavour do seem to count as 2nd Rates, and the Victory just manages 1st Rate status.

Still, try explaining that to the many players who look at the number of guns and think "100+ means 1st Rate", regardless of the guns that "don't count".
Besides, if we use this guideline for other ships, we might suddenly see more 'demotions' in the ratings, which is unnecessary, I'd say.

So in this case, I reckon it's best to overlook Disney's flawed cannon placements and pretend the ships are 1st Rates. They are fictional ships, after all. :rolleyes:
 
Well, the install I've been using for this work has died. I'm now using another install but really don't know when I will be able to get back to work on these ships. In that game I don't have enough cash to buy one yet.
thpirateshipff.gif


This is how far Ive gotten. She's finished except for the jib sails and the rigging.

I just recently started adding stays to ships and then it was for placement of control lines. I didn't know they were that important.
 
Ok I'm back in business. :beer

I don't know if I'll ever get the terminology right, but the jib sails are pretty much how I want them now, with just some fine tuning needed. Comments welcome.

I'm also thinking that to differentiate between the different ships the each ship could have it's own layout. For instance the Victory could have all three jib sails, the Endeavor could have just the top two, and the Dauntless could have the bottom two. :nerbz


Sorry the screenie is at night.
 
That layout definitely looks better than before, though I reckon the jibboom could still do with a length increase as aforementioned. I'll see what I can do.

Different jibs/stays'ls would look good, but maybe like this: Victory has all three, and the Dauntless/Endeavour both have the lower two.
That, along with the different sprits'ls and hull designs/paint schemes, should make the ships different enough, while maintaining realistic rigging.
Does that sound good?
 
Sprit'ls? Do those go under the jib?

From the drawings I have seen the jib sails varied from one to three in all combinations, so anything will work.
 
Hylie Pistoff said:
Sprit'ls? Do those go under the jib?
Click to expand...
I think so, if I understand Post Captain correctly. :mm

What we really need at some point is a complete diagram of all the various yards/sails, to avoid all this confusion.
 
I guess I'll do a diagram tomorrow labeling everything. I do have one pretty good idea, but that'll need the diagram to explain.

I'll try again, though...
Sprits'l: The squares'l (s'l- how "sail" is pronounced) under the bowsprit (If a vessel has two sprits'ls, the forewardmost one is called the sprit tops'l. You never set a sprit tops'l without setting a regular sprits'l first.
And the normal heads'ls: (They are not all jibs, but they generally get called jibs. The proper term is "heads'l")
Fore topmast stays'l- the fore and aft sail on the stay run from the top of the foretopmast to the end of the bowsprit.
Inner Jib- the fore and aft sail on the stay run from the top of the foretopmast to the middle of the jibbom.
Outer Jib- the fore and aft sail on the stay run from the middle of the topgallantmast to the end of the jibbom.
This model has a forestays'l, which was fairly unusual an only set on men of war. It was the fore and aft sail on the stay run from the top of the lower foremast to the end of the bowsprit. This model has, from inside to outside, (fore to aft) a forestays'l, a fore topmast stays'l (kind of... the lead isn't quite correct), and an inner jib (kind of), An overall unusual combination.
There are other types of heads'ls that could have been set in certain conditions, and my idea involves adding some of the more common heads'ls (and adding royals) instead of removing them. I'll get back to you once I have all my diagrams drawn up.

Edit: this may be important:
Bowsprit: the innermost spar.
Jibboom: the outermost spar. Most of the rigging is missing in the picture.
DSC02021_sm.jpg

Foremast proper (not visible in picture): (aka lower foremast) The lowest segment of the foremast. The next segment up is the foretopmast, and the one above that is the fore t'gallantmast (spelled topgallant, pronounced t'gallant)

Sorry if this is getting a little confusing. I'm crew on a tall ship and I take this vocabulary for granted. (It seems much simpler after a few weeks sailing on a brig)
 
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