Included in Build Ship Encounter Chances Correction

[morgan terror]

that reminds me of my encounter with a cutter once. it can outrun a pirate corvette when they both have the wind on the beam. i was very surprised. are you sure it's not because it can sail into the wind too well? if the ability ends up too high it tends to do some rather wierd stuff, such as sudden speed spikes at nonsensical moments. the steam frigate is a really good example of this problem.

and, yes, bermuda sloops are dismasted really easily. i think it's partially because the ship is so low, not just because the mast is so big. with the mast in the position it is now, gun crews will attempt to hit a hull that isn't there and hit the mast instead. at least, that's what i think. this sloop is the one ship where a low profile backfires on you.

 

[Black Bart]

The Xebec's were almost the perfect pirate ship...for the Mediterranean, where low draft and shallow hulls plus rowing points enabled constant speed advantage over merchant and other ships. Still in the Caribbean, the weather gets much rougher, and those advantages could become big dissadvantages, which was why historically the Xebecs were never as popular in the real Caribbean as they are in ours, and i suspect the odd one that did opperate here was modified quite a bit from her Mediterranean configuration.

I think the issues you are talking about Morgan are all limited to the Arcade mode, heck no ships even 'need' the wind so all the boosted stats for Arcade mode(+4-5 knots over 'realistic' mode) get even more boosted with the wind in your sails!!!(speedboat time!). In realistic mode it is all about the wind, and that means unless you are very unlucky, the starting Lugger(with current stats) will 99% of the time be able to slip away, well in terms of at sea encounters. If you find yourself in the thick of a battle on leaving port, that is just unlucky! All the changes i make will only aim to effect realistic mode in terms of the ships.

 

[morgan terror]

uh, no. i am talking about realistic mode, and that mode only. the point is that a lugger can sail at the same angle of wind as it's rivals, the sloop, xebec and schooner. and if you'd make those faster than the lugger, you're screwed no matter where you encounter pirates, since they'd be able to keep up. aside from the problem that the ocean wouldn't update when you're supposed to be at a new island, try imagining an encounter with pirates on the middle of a voyage. that's a long way where you wouldn't be able to escape. i know the problem already exists for the player, but making the lugger slower than all standard pirate ships would make it so bad that it starts hurting gameplay.

that being said, the xebec and schooner were already faster anyway. with increased speed for sloops and decreased speed for luggers though, they'll all be faster, and that's the problem.

 

[Black Bart]

uh, no. i am talking about realistic mode, and that mode only. the point is that a lugger can sail at the same angle of wind as it's rivals, the sloop, xebec and schooner. and if you'd make those faster than the lugger, you're screwed no matter where you encounter pirates, since they'd be able to keep up. aside from the problem that the ocean wouldn't update when you're supposed to be at a new island, try imagining an encounter with pirates on the middle of a voyage. that's a long way where you wouldn't be able to escape. i know the problem already exists for the player, but making the lugger slower than all standard pirate ships would make it so bad that it starts hurting gameplay.

The code for Island Update could be an issue, although having looked at it i think it does force a load after a period of time, even if you are ship-bound. I've had it happen once or twice in long engagements. The 'load' then empty sea's where the chasing enemy once were.

that being said, the xebec and schooner were already faster anyway. with increased speed for sloops and decreased speed for luggers though, they'll all be faster, and that's the problem.

We get a lot of brigs now as pirate ships of choice, and the only time they are a real threat is if they have a xebec in their group. I don't see many pirate sloops, nor schooners actually(although they are quite a way off from being as good as the Lugger into the wind(75 vs 90 for the Lugger) , so can be outrun using that tactic). And so far in my game those changes i've made to Lugger1(or whatever starting ship you use(VML)) have not equalled instant-death. We can theorize about it but until it's tested in game, we can't really know

So far i like it(i haven't been killed by pirates - i might change my mind if that starts to happen alot!), i don't really notice the difference from 12.0 knots base to 10.5 knots base, i do notice the 300cwt less cargo space - it meant less money from my cargo at game start, and with my now 700cwt limit packed with gold to trade at Curacoa and supplies for my crew, i also know i want to upgrade my cargo capacity asap(a heavy Lugger maybe?). I have an upgrade path through the smaller fore&aft ships now open to me, which in turn can mean a move into the square-rigger type once i have improved the skills of my character and officer NPC's(to get the best performance out of those more demanding ships).

 

[morgan terror]

ah, be careful with that cargo space. i remember some problems a while back when it got decreased. i think the player didn't have enough money to buy a spyglass, fix his ship and hire a crew after he'd sold his cargo, because there wasn't enough space to hold all that stuff you have at the start. does that sill work right?

what i think is that your idea might work well once the xebec presence has been nerfed. they're the main threat right now, but i can't be sure how much the amount of sloops and schooner will increase once xebecs are made less common. it could be quite bad. there's also still the problem of new players not knowing that ships all have different handling. i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere at all. it's a shame this game doesn't have a proper pop-up system, so you could maybe give the player an optional sea tutorial once he gets on it the first time.

 

[Black Bart]

ah, be careful with that cargo space. i remember some problems a while back when it got decreased. i think the player didn't have enough money to buy a spyglass, fix his ship and hire a crew after he'd sold his cargo, because there wasn't enough space to hold all that stuff you have at the start. does that sill work right?

Yeah, but even with the normal 'best' start in terms of having 100 leather+100 Chocolate i would have to work a bit in the start to get my full compliment of nine Officers/Spyglass/Full hold of gold+silver to trade etc. I was a little dissapointed to find i seem to get more leather than chocolate currently(well on 4 'new' game starts so far), with the reduction from 1000cwt to 700cwt, but as usual a bit of exploration+combat soon provides the gold i need for that 'perfect' start. So no it's not a problem, no more than normal really, especially if players bump into the new villager dialogues that key them into 'clearing the jungle of bandits for extra cash' etc.

what i think is that your idea might work well once the xebec presence has been nerfed. they're the main threat right now, but i can't be sure how much the amount of sloops and schooner will increase once xebecs are made less common. it could be quite bad. there's also still the problem of new players not knowing that ships all have different handling. i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere at all. it's a shame this game doesn't have a proper pop-up system, so you could maybe give the player an optional sea tutorial once he gets on it the first time.

In my post above on the Schooners I was making a mistake in interpreting the 'turnrate' as being their 'into the wind' ability. But it is in 'closestpoint' and 'bestpoint' and all the 'Schooner' types have less ability here than the Lugger, which really just leaves the Xebec and Bermuda Sloops as the main dangers to the starting Lugger. I'm not sure exactly where in the code the 'spawn' chance for the Xebec is, but once that is found it will be possible to reduce it's appearences and increase some of the other 'likely' candidates to take up the slack for the better fore&aft pirate vessels.

 

[morgan terror]

yeah, but i'm wondering if the player actually knows those other ways to make money. it's pretty unlikely, and new players will die really often at first, so swordfighting is something that's quite discouraged for them. do you have enough money to complete all tutorial mission objectives just from selling your cargo? that's the point.

i remember the code. i've been fiddling with it a bit myself. don't remember where the encounter chances are though.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

This player doesn't. When fighting means it only takes 1-2 strikes to kill you and it takes 6-10 strikes to kill one of them, fighting is avoided at all costs.

Crickey! Saving Toff Ormann's daughter is risky with me dying as often as not. :ixi And I have 2 others helping me.

 

[L0M3N]

0.o what difficulty you on Hylie?
On Apprentice sword fights are so easy I can win boardings by myself.
I don't play apprentice anymore because it is too easy.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

Swashbuckler.

POTC starts off really hard, but then gets easier and easier until it is boring. So I try to extend the hard part into the later levels by not using any magical good luck charms. Natural ability only. That means a long time is spent in class 7 and 6 ships while you slowly build yourself up. It also means that when you start getting the reward ships you can't sail them because you aren't good enough. Or else you can sail them at greatly reduced efficiency. Big cannons and strong hulls are nice, but when other ships are sailing circles around you it gets frustrating and I soon find myself back in smaller ships.

 

[L0M3N]

Yeah I try to avoid stat boosting trinkets except luck because I get CTDs when coast guard appears while smuggling.
But some I can't avoid like +sailing from my compass and sextant. Maybe realistic mode should disable
the stat boosts on those required sailing tools?

 

[morgan terror]

i don't think so. i've never been able to get it past 6 without items, ever. and you do need those extra points.

 

[Black Bart]

yeah, but i'm wondering if the player actually knows those other ways to make money. it's pretty unlikely, and new players will die really often at first, so swordfighting is something that's quite discouraged for them. do you have enough money to complete all tutorial mission objectives just from selling your cargo? that's the point.

Yeah, even with the more expensive Spyglass(that takes half your starting gold in the first 'port' visit to Speightstown after(or during if you follow the whole thing) the tutorial section on ship). Ship repair costs about 3000 gold to fix, crew about a few hundred gold. Your cargo still nets you a good surplus to cover all that(about 12,000 going just from memory!). The bit where my costs go up is in hiring the officers, i always spend the time(in and out the tavern like a ping-pong ball!) to get my nine officers that will stay with me the whole game(if they don't die that is). So i have to get creative in money creation(from selling high priced officer weapons to exploring the locations/doing the dungeon etc) for all that, and getting enough cargo to trade at La Granada(my first stop after the 'escape from oxbay' video).

But if i simply followed the tutorial i'd have the money to do the key tasks(Spyglass/ship repairs/crew hire(maybe an officer or two as well)). So no worries on the reduced cargo for starting Lugger1(test) on that score. I've yet to fall foul of 'fast pirates' so that still needs some play-testing, and i've always got my chainshot loaded in the early stages to help with this prospect( i can certainly damage sails to reduce the overall speed of an enemy)

 

[Hylie Pistof]

The only advantage to the good compass is the ship and wind speed. I miss those. The sextant was a good thing in reality and should give some benefit in game, but +2 is way too much. Luck? In the game I'm playing now I'm at level 20,21,22. I forget already. My luck is 5, which I think is average. My leadership is 9 and Captain level is 5. Which sucks because the 2 reward ships I got so far are the class 3 spiegelretourschip or Amsterdam (berthed) and the class 1 SP_battlegalleon_weathered. When I get back I'll be looking to get the class 5 Surprise or Boussole.


Black Bart: You get all of your officers right away? To each his own..... Once I get some cash up I hire one officer and that's it until I start running into some really good ones sprinkled around the Caribbean.

 

[Black Bart]

Black Bart: You get all of your officers right away? To each his own..... Once I get some cash up I hire one officer and that's it until I start running into some really good ones sprinkled around the Caribbean.

Yeah i like to form the basis of my crew at game start, i might loose a few during the game, or gain a few as i upgrade ships etc. In general i make sure i leave speightstown with between 6-9 officers(levels 1-2 on recruiting). I try to stay as lvl 1 myself while i finish this bit off(the officers you get are lower ranked and cheaper!). I find by getting them from the beggining i can better control their skills as they level up, so i get the type of officers i need most. It's a bit 'cheesy' maybe, but i really like that personalization as it makes me care more for them i find?

I think Swashbuckler weights the hand-to-hand combat a bit too much, after playing this difficulty for a while i prefer Adventurer for a little less enemy NPC boosting!! But i'm happy it's there if i ever feel like that kind of challange.

 

[Armada]

About the encounter chances code, I believe I posted an example of it in an earlier post.
In PROGRAM/Ships/ships_init.c, this is found in the Edinburgh's entry:

//Period
refShip.period.0 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.1 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.2 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.3 = 0.0; //
refShip.period.4 = 0.9; //
refShip.period.5 = 1.0; //
//Nation
refShip.england = 0.5; //
refShip.france = 0.5; //
refShip.holland = 0.0; //
refShip.portugal = 0.0; //
refShip.pirate = 0.0; //
refShip.spain = 0.0; //
refShip.america = 0.4; //

A chance of 0.0 means it can't be encountered, and 1.0 means it will definitely be encountered at some point.

The layout is the same for all ships except unique quest ones, and it's very easy to manipulate precisely.

I will be experimenting with your suggestions and releasing WIP versions of the file for you to test to destruction.
Obviously we can discuss the WIP changes and tune them until they are just how we want them. :hmm

 

[CrisGer]

If wikipedia said brigs were rare among pirates or anyone else ...it may be that there were a few more than they thought.....at least that is what I recall from my own research over the years..... They were i think rather common and among all users. they were cheap to build, economic to operate and repair and carried adequate load for cargo operations. Sometimes they were a bit limited for the tasks assigned to them by commanders for military missions but they were the Ford Trucks of their era.

Luggers were the ship of choice for many pirates...or combination rigs that used some of their features. They were fast, easy and cheap to build and could sail and anchor or be stored just about anywhere. There were not a lot of wharfs and docks in the places that pirates had to frequent, esp in the outer islands, so small was better. Of course any pirate would love to have a larger rig if they came across one that was not too damanged in its aquisition. I am sure the team did well on the distribution of types. From what i read here, the knowledge base is very strong.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I just ran into a pretty massive error related to this. A LOT of ships don't have their refShip.america line, resulting in the USA using a LOT more ships than they should.
I'm now adding this line to every ship in the game.

Edit: Another note: Why should pirates not use luggers? From what I understand, the lugger was a popular pirate ship? :?

Lineship47 is Holland only?

 

[Armada]

Wow, that's a pretty major chunk of code to forget about!

Anyway, luggers should be used by pirates. I wasn't aware that they weren't to start with.
We'll need to review the pirates' use of ships to make sure they don't use anything too big, as well.

I thought Lineship47 was supposed to be a Dutch-looking texture, but I guess it could pass off as Portuguese too.
Then again, we're back to this problem of Portugal inheriting a multi-coloured fleet. :wacko:

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Wow, that's a pretty major chunk of code to forget about!

That's what I thought! Sorted for now though, but in Beta 2 someone should critically examine all chances and make sure they're correct.
Some struck me as being a bit dodgy and needing attention.

Anyway, luggers should be used by pirates. I wasn't aware that they weren't to start with.
We'll need to review the pirates' use of ships to make sure they don't use anything too big, as well.

Would be great if that could be looked at when Beta 2 is released.

I thought Lineship47 was supposed to be a Dutch-looking texture, but I guess it could pass off as Portuguese too.
Then again, we're back to this problem of Portugal inheriting a multi-coloured fleet. :wacko:

Only very vaguely; I thought of just using her as a generic lineship.