• New Horizons on Maelstrom
    Maelstrom New Horizons


    Visit our website www.piratehorizons.com to quickly find download links for the newest versions of our New Horizons mods Beyond New Horizons and Maelstrom New Horizons!

Willemstad Builders' Trials

Then you let me deal with the need to keep those new players informed. You've made a fair point, but is there a need to throw a monkey wrench into a product that has taken that fact, and many other arguments, into account for an entire month of operation? If ten more people jump on the same bandwagon we will not even progress to the beta stage.

This is my project and my responsibility. Can I have that understanding?

ps. A caravel is not the most maneuverable vessel in the Caribbean. How the entire "arcade mode should be more arcade" argument stems from a playtest of one shiptype is beyond me. I have two hundred and twenty ships handmade, a large number of those with dissimilar individual statistics and historically-derived handling.

I posted a youtube video showcasing WBT arcade gameplay with a ship type that was historically known to turn on a dime and handle just as well on most points of sail. Obviously, good material like that is all but ignored and forgotten.
 
I repeat:

ps. A caravel is not the most maneuverable vessel in the Caribbean. How the entire "arcade mode should be more arcade" argument stems from a playtest of one shiptype is beyond me. I have two hundred and twenty ships handmade, a large number of those with dissimilar individual statistics and historically-derived handling.
Click to expand...
 
i'm not exactly inexperienced with the mods either, you know. i've played the game for 4 years, stock game and all build versions from there up to b14 a6. but i'll let it rest for now and see what the actual effect is in practice.

what i'm saying is that although you might not find the difference significant, someone else might. that's what i intend to find out and warn against.
 
Only MODDERS have played with WBT!!!!!!!

SWS you need to listen to what others say, you cant just go "this is my project so I want it how I like it"
I tested the WBT and found that the counter-rudder needed for arcade mode was far to realisitic and I can see it having people getting annoyed and complaining once the beta stage is released.

AND I NOW COUNTER THAT STATEMENT...
a large number of those with dissimilar individual statistics and historically-derived handling
Click to expand...
Arcade-Mode isnt supposed to be 100% historically arcurate and realistic, its supposed to be arcurate a little but it is still supposed to not be realistic enough that players have to know what a real ship is like to play it.

Oh and the comment about the car wasnt the best one either, some of our members are like 12 or less so they wouldnt know how to drive a car

You have 3 people voice concern (two tester WHO ALSO HAPPEN TO BE MODERATORS) and also a high standing member who has been around for 4 years

Oh one more thing, Ive changed stuff in my storyline if ONLY Pieter has said something, "ah maybe that should be more like this" and we work out what works.
If your waiting for 20 people to voice concern we are going to loose our more as Pieter puts it "regular" players.

Its not like we are asking to change it all for arcade JUST the counter-rudder
 
This is a small issue and definitely, there isn't any need to not only gang up on me, but quote threatening statements implying since I'm new, I have no idea as to the needs of players. I also see not point in comparing "who has greater experience" and indeed, I find that completely uncalled for.

All projects on my plate shall be henceforth suspended indefinitely thanks to you. You've had a month to test, comment, and raise concerns regarding this project, which has now been slated for Beta integration. Silence, was the reply to countless requests for feedback, which does include playability issues in both arcade and realistic mode.

Since I'm not obliged to fight terror with terror, let's just say that there are more appreciative persons to work with and thus they will be getting their share of my contributions in due course. That group isn't located in PA.net.
 
I have had a day to test actually... and I wasnt implying cause your new had anything to do it...
The fact that the WBT was only available for general modders for a day (along with the steam ship and kraken tenticles) means that I didnt know what it was like till yesterday and as soon as I found out, what did I do? I voiced my concern about it (first to Pieter and then on the forum)

Your the one who wont listen to other members at all... I was worried about voicing my concern when I did test it on arcade and found it to realistic cause you dont want to change anything even if others people voice their opinions and you get into arguments with them. All Morgon Terror did was confirm that he thought Pieter and I had valid points and you absolutly bit his head off. So I fought fire with fire.

The only thing I was saying from the experience was that we do know what players like and dislike when it comes to the game... There have been things that have been put in the Build and then later removed because the general population didnt like it much, Im just trying to remove this from happening.

The project is yours but you cant blow off what others think as well
 
Ok Ive gone and taken it on myself to test the difference between what I suggested we do for arcade mode and it seriously is that easy to make it arcade again :shrug

So there you go, who wants an arcade mode which doesnt require counter-rudder and then realistic which does require it?
EVERYTHING ELSE IS THE SAME
I know I do!
 
There's no point in continuing the standoff is there?

While some of us obviously will never see eye to eye on anything, that shouldn't affect the conduct of Build development in any way. After all our active posters are so small in number that any drama is hilariously alike to the slides in a silent movie (i.e. useless).

I do acknowledge the point that it is desirable to have the "stock arcade" mode included. Understandably, all of us who prefer a more realistic approach to sailing did at first experience the stock "playstation" sailing model first. Familiarity with that basic and action oriented system (not that WBT is boring) is what spurs the rest of us and myself to try and make things more complex in favour of immersion and more innovative tactics.

So, give me a few days and I should be able to get arcade code flag working, as well as a few other bells and whistles.

The stock game allowed historically slow but agile ships like sloops to sail at clipper speeds. This is toned down in WBT and their agility and excellent upwind ability augmented. However it can't be denied that a lot of non historically savvy players will be puzzled at how a sloop can be run down by a frigate in certain points of sail.

Thus I do intend to add arcade mode flags for rates of turn and max. speed if necessary. As for features like revamped max. calibres per hull I believe the selections made for each ship in WBT is more fun and logical than the stock settings. I don't understand why a gigantic 2000 ton galleon should be limited to 12 pounders (it's balanced out by bathtub-like handling anyway).

I hope this solves the difficulties in starting a beta test system (indeed I would like others who have no idea as to what I'm doing, at least try WBT out and give me some pointers for improvements), and that should there be disagreement on a personal level, there's always the option PM and such.
 
we'd all like to see your idea in action. but in realistic mode. arcade mode is simply not where it belongs. by any means, i don't intend to halt your work and make you leave, but do try to be a little considerate about the rest of the community and the players.
 
The only thing I think needs changing from WTB matey is the amount of counter-rudder... I think everything else is fine :yes

That is the only thing I think is a bit to realistic for arcade mode, the counter-rudder needed in arcade should be little to none (ie default inertia values)

Of course the counter rudder for realistic is awesome! :yes
 
Thankfully that IS simple to do. I kept all the stock code in the ship init files if you notice.

And I still do claim that WBT "knife fighter" ships do turn on a dime like they did historically. Caravel had a neutered rudder because well, whomever modelled her for the stock game gave a relatively heavy ocean going ship a tiny rudder.
 
I did notice and tested it as well with the Black Pearl to see if my suggestion earlier about the if (!bArcadeMode) around the WBT values would work and it did :yes

So the code is simply this for every ship, unfortunantly it will take time to do it for all of them :(
Code: 
if (!bArcadeMode){
WBT VALUES
}
else
{
ORIGINAL VALUES
}
 
Thanks for the concept-proving; I'll get on it later tonight and hopefully finish up the last bit of the manual at last. Then I can put out a finished package up here for anyone else to test if interested.

Well don't worry about the repetition, I did go through all 218 shipinit entries (s0on to be 220) various times when 'realistic' mode needed fixing.
 
Good you guys finally worked the issue out. I haven't tested it yet, but I think keeping the aracade mode more aracade is the best sollution.
 
Small word of caution - most of the changes and game rebalances are based on careful historical thought and accounts. Especially the names and very diverse ship performance for class 5-7. Anything larger is just progressive scaling of a giant crate.

Oh and we're faster to make realism-based per-hull top speeds than CoAS :p

Other alterations are simply logical and enhance the utility of underused or underepresented hulls. There's now no such thing as cramming a galleon-load of cargo into a hull half the size of a galleon. These changes were presented to Pieter as the overlooked areas were chanced upon.

Usually, those cargo ships that lose capacity make up for it in some other way, like increased firepower or speed. Or use some of the faster ones as assault frigates with huge boarding parties.

Ps. We're past 80 ships.
 
Indeed I was fairly involved in the development of the WBT and as far as I've been able to tell, all the changes are for the better.
Especially when it comes to realism, but also for gamebalancing and just plain simple logic.

As far as I'm concerned, all values should be Build default since the original values were never really made to be logical.
Basically, modders who added a new ship just came up with some values they liked.
And since it's THEIR ship, they liked making the values pretty darn good, sometimes beyond the reasonable.
The WBT re-evaluates all ship stats and makes them logical and balanced in a way that we haven't had for many years.

As said before, the sole exception is the need for counter-rudder.
Although it could be that we underestimate our audience and they would not have a problem with this,
over the years I have gotten the impression that we basically have two different audiences:
the players who really do care about realism and the players who really don't.

Of course we don't have any hard evidence on whether or not that second group really
would have much of a problem with it until they are actually forced to play with it.
However, as soon as they ARE forced to play with it and they DO object,
I fear there's a good chance that rather than turning to us for support and giving us feedback,
they'll just get fed up and drop it.

A long story short, I think we can all agree that the modifications put forth by the WBT
are very much a major improvement for the Build.
Now that SWS is changing the need for counter-rudder in Arcade sailing mode,
I think Build 14 Beta 1 will cater better also to the more Arcade-inclined players who use the Build Mod.

For the past weeks, I did all my tests in Realistic game mode and it seemed to me
that WBT made it more realistic and easier and more fun to play with, exactly as intended by SWS.
With a bit of luck, this might convince players who formerly only used Acrade (eg. me) to switch to Realistic instead.
If so, that would be an enourmous achievement on the part of SWS!

Other idea: What if we'd switch Realistic game mode on by default?
Players can easily switch it off, but they would get "the full monty" straight away.
Who knows? Maybe they'll like it? Any thoughts?
 
I'd say with a couple of strategically placed comments on moddb linking to some strategically created videos over the weekend should give the impression what sort of gameplay can be had with the new settings. First we already have a "waltzing matilda" war fishing cutter video that proves realistic inertia isn't detrimental to action gameplay (it actually made steering so easy and quick I couldn't use the handheld camera :p). A second video should feature larger ships and high speed tactics where momentum control is key.

For that second one I'll have to finish up the differential stats conversion before the weekend, commission a chase boat (how else better to film something at 13 kts?) and find some unwitting targets for steamship target practise.

As for realistic mode option by default - why not? Just as again, put strategically placed signs up on build documentation, download links areas and perhaps rename the realism options menu for "standard" and "WBT" sailing models. That would basically give you 2 games in 1.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top