Solved Updating the Worldmap

[Armada]

I'm not sure if in CoAS the town and island models quite match up with each other.
Does Governor's Harbor match up with the Eleuthera island model? I can't quite remember, but I don't think so.

They do seem to match up to some extent, which is what suggests to me that there must be a sort-of matching island model to go with the Charlestown location model.
If you could find and upload that, I could try to merge it with Nevis.

Oops... I just realised I didn't add the 'ship.pos' coordinates from Worldmap_init.c on the map model.
Those tell the game where to put the toy ship once you enter the map from ports and shores, right? The one for Martinique's town is way off.

Wait, no, that's silly; you have to go to sea BEFORE going to the World Map anyway, so the game would take your ship's current position and plot that on the World Map.
I noticed Pirat_KK added these 'ship.pos' lines, so he should know what they're for. I'm just wondering if they're essential or not, before I go and add all these extra coordinates to the map model.

That at least would prevent us from having to start all our good work here from scratch (which I REALLY don't want to be doing; I want to go FORWARD, dammit!).
We'd lose out on the improved graphics and fencing and whatever else CoAS does better, though.

Doing it this way would at least mean we'd potentially have less work to do if we decided to port the Build Mod over to Storm 2.8, I guess.

(What DOES CoAS do better anyway???)

Um... it works properly on Intel graphics? And has a proper sidestep animation/collision? (SO many people complain about that in PotC.)

I'm also thinking, at this rate we might as well take Cartagena out of the "quest only" generation and make it always accessible.
That would also enable "coast raiders" at Colombia. And the town is in a better state than most when we were adding new islands before.
All it needs are a workable store, shipyard, etc. and fast travel and we're set.

Probably a good idea. No point in adding the mainland if we can't make good use of it!

 

[Hylie Pistof]

COAS has better graphics, people animations, and fencing for sure.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

They do seem to match up to some extent, which is what suggests to me that there must be a sort-of matching island model to go with the Charlestown location model.
If you could find and upload that, I could try to merge it with Nevis.

As I said, the GM Viewer is no help here because the islands are too big. And I can't remember which island it was either.

Wait, no, that's silly; you have to go to sea BEFORE going to the World Map anyway, so the game would take your ship's current position and plot that on the World Map.
I noticed Pirat_KK added these 'ship.pos' lines, so he should know what they're for. I'm just wondering if they're essential or not, before I go and add all these extra coordinates to the map model.

You can send him a PM? He replies. Sometimes.

Doing it this way would at least mean we'd potentially have less work to do if we decided to port the Build Mod over to Storm 2.8, I guess.

Do you then want to make your new worldmap model such that we can pop it right into CoAS too?

Um... it works properly on Intel graphics?

It does? Indeed that IS nice.

And has a proper sidestep animation/collision? (SO many people complain about that in PotC.)

Indeed I'm getting so sick and tired of people whinging about that despite it being mentioned everywhere that I'm wondering if we SHOULD get rid of it.
Or put an InternalSettings.h toggle on it that nobody but us knows about. So we can use it and nobody else has to be bothered by it.

Probably a good idea. No point in adding the mainland if we can't make good use of it!

It is funny how it was harder to keep Cartagena OUT of various code effects than to add it IN.

 

[Armada]

As I said, the GM Viewer is no help here because the islands are too big. And I can't remember which island it was either.

I've been using GM Viewer quite happily to view islands and the world map alike, using WASD while holding Shift.
It doesn't matter, though. We can live with the islands as they are for now.

You can send him a PM? He replies. Sometimes.

Except I just realised there is a comment above each of the 'ship.pos' lines which says "initial ship location". Still not totally sure how they're used, but I'll add the coordinates anyway.
It helps if one reads these things.

Do you then want to make your new worldmap model such that we can pop it right into CoAS too?

That would be ideal, yes.

It does? Indeed that IS nice.

Well I don't know if it does, because I don't have the game; I just haven't seen anyone complaining about it on Intel graphics.

Indeed I'm getting so sick and tired of people whinging about that despite it being mentioned everywhere that I'm wondering if we SHOULD get rid of it.
Or put an InternalSettings.h toggle on it that nobody but us knows about. So we can use it and nobody else has to be bothered by it.

I think that's worth doing, yes. Hopefully that will put an end to all the whining.
I still don't get how this one thing can 'ruin' the game for some people.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I've been using GM Viewer quite happily to view islands and the world map alike, using WASD while holding Shift.
It doesn't matter, though. We can live with the islands as they are for now.

How did I ever manage to fail to do that?!?
Turns out that Charlestown in PotC is simply Charlestown from CoAS and the island is the CoAS version of Nevis:
http://piratesahoy.bowengames.com/potc/TEMP/Nevis_Island.zip

Except I just realised there is a comment above each of the 'ship.pos' lines which says "initial ship location". Still not totally sure how they're used, but I'll add the coordinates anyway.
It helps if one reads these things.

I think they are to put your ship on the worldmap in the correct position when you start a new game.
Compare to this in the Jack Aubrey StartStoryline.c file:

    worldMap.playerShipX = 404.2;    // Philippe: ship stays near island even
    worldMap.playerShipZ = -785.8;    // if you must go on worldmap first time
    worldMap.playerShipAY = 3.0;
    worldMap.playerShipActionRadius = 20.0;
    worldMap.playerShipDispX = stf(worldMap.playerShipX) - stf(worldMap.islands.Eleuthera.position.rx);
    worldMap.playerShipDispZ = stf(worldMap.playerShipZ) - stf(worldMap.islands.Eleuthera.position.rz);

That would be ideal, yes.

Wouldn't that require you to have the same islands as CoAS does? Then we might find ourselves porting all those islands.
That's allow you to make a new worldmap based purely on CoAS island models. But it'd require quite some adapting of all PotC island locators.
Or we can decide to make some sort of a mix between PotC and CoAS islands.

I think that's worth doing, yes. Hopefully that will put an end to all the whining.

I've put that on my to-do list. Will be easy enough. We want it disabled by default then?

I still don't get how this one thing can 'ruin' the game for some people.

Me neither.

they can play one of the four "CIII character" they have the proper age of pirate sidestep anyway !

I don't remember any complaining about the "sliding" effect. It is always the lack of collision detection. That we have tried and failed to do anything about.

What a shock it would have been for them to use it in Build 12 and, rather than a smooth slide, they got an instant teleport!

 

[Armada]

How did I ever manage to fail to do that?!?
Turns out that Charlestown in PotC is simply Charlestown from CoAS and the island is the CoAS version of Nevis:

Ah, that makes sense. Looking at all the COL files and other associated stuff, though, it seems it would be quite a bit of work to combine the relevant parts of both islands, or even just replace the PotC Nevis with the CoAS one.
Especially once you include the addition of the fort, meaning we'd have another location to sort out for the Capture Colonies mod.
I think we should put this idea on the backburner, for now.

I think they are to put your ship on the worldmap in the correct position when you start a new game.
Compare to this in the Jack Aubrey StartStoryline.c file:

    worldMap.playerShipX = 404.2;    // Philippe: ship stays near island even
    worldMap.playerShipZ = -785.8;    // if you must go on worldmap first time
    worldMap.playerShipAY = 3.0;
    worldMap.playerShipActionRadius = 20.0;
    worldMap.playerShipDispX = stf(worldMap.playerShipX) - stf(worldMap.islands.Eleuthera.position.rx);
    worldMap.playerShipDispZ = stf(worldMap.playerShipZ) - stf(worldMap.islands.Eleuthera.position.rz);

Yeah, that seems logical. It also looks like I'll have to add those position.rx and rz coordinates to the map model, which I forgot about.
I'm over half-way through adding the ship.pos coordinates, so it shouldn't take much longer.

Wouldn't that require you to have the same islands as CoAS does? Then we might find ourselves porting all those islands.
That's allow you to make a new worldmap based purely on CoAS island models. But it'd require quite some adapting of all PotC island locators.
Or we can decide to make some sort of a mix between PotC and CoAS islands.

I was thinking more of simply using the PotC islands and map in CoAS, rather than trying to port all of their islands one way or another.
Our goal would be to get the Build Mod over to the newer engine, rather than combining it with all the CoAS content, after all.

I've put that on my to-do list. Will be easy enough. We want it disabled by default then?

Yes. That's the only way we can be assured of shutting up the whiners (unless we get a NEW wave of complaints saying "what happened to the sidestep?" ).

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Ah, that makes sense. Looking at all the COL files and other associated stuff, though, it seems it would be quite a bit of work to combine the relevant parts of both islands, or even just replace the PotC Nevis with the CoAS one.
Especially once you include the addition of the fort, meaning we'd have another location to sort out for the Capture Colonies mod.
I think we should put this idea on the backburner, for now.

Indeed, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Or in this case... you can chew.

I was thinking more of simply using the PotC islands and map in CoAS, rather than trying to port all of their islands one way or another.
Our goal would be to get the Build Mod over to the newer engine, rather than combining it with all the CoAS content, after all.

That might indeed be easier. The CoAS islands do tend to look a bit nicer, but the PotC ones aren't bad either.
And if you keep the Maya file for the final PotC world-map version, the possibility always remains to update it later on if the need arises.
Not sure if and when we'd start moving stuff into CoAS anyway. Though with a bit of luck, we will manage to get Build 14 done this year. Now that'd be nice!
Maybe by that time, "Pirates Odyssey" will be released? Perhaps that turns out even better than CoAS? We'll see.

Yes. That's the only way we can be assured of shutting up the whiners (unless we get a NEW wave of complaints saying "what happened to the sidestep?" ).

Now that would be funny!

 

[Armada]

And if you keep the Maya file for the final PotC world-map version, the possibility always remains to update it later on if the need arises.

Exactly. As I said, we can't customise the CoAS map like this, and it's a miracle that we've salvaged the mainland for use on the PotC map.

One thing I forgot to mention was that, along with the mainland, all the little town models were salvaged from the CoAS map.
These include settlements, lighthouses, and special models representing what looks like a Mayan temple and the City of Abandoned Ships.
They're modelled directly onto the map, unlike the locator method we use for the forts and shore models on the PotC map.
Because of this, they're not really worth using for the PotC map, but probably worth holding on to in case we do decide to port the map to CoAS.

Not sure if and when we'd start moving stuff into CoAS anyway. Though with a bit of luck, we will manage to get Build 14 done this year. Now that'd be nice!
Maybe by that time, "Pirates Odyssey" will be released? Perhaps that turns out even better than CoAS? We'll see.

Finishing Build 14 would be a great achievement, especially if we manage it this year!
I'd be interested to see what Pirates Odyssey brings to the table, indeed. We still don't know an awful lot about it, really.

EDIT: BTW, now that you're savvy with viewing islands in GM Viewer, could you have another look for some candidates for Petit Tabac and Isla Mona? I'm still finishing off coordinate placement on the world map right now.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So are you saying that our PotC map will or will not have additional little models on them?

Oh, that reminds me: I'd REALLY like putting some of those SPECIAL locations into PotC. Mayan temple = niiice, for example!
City of Abandoned Ships would have to stand in for Shipwreck Cove. But oh well, wishful thinking again.

I'm hoping to get the remaining Beta 2.5-based polishing done soon so that I can focus for a while on that Beta 3 code.
We need those Quest Cases confirmed and too-strong soldiers reconsidered and adjusted for people to "fully" be able to enjoy the game, don't you think?

 

[Armada]

So are you saying that our PotC map will or will not have additional little models on them?

It won't have the extra models on it, but I'll keep those models in the Maya file for future use.

Oh, that reminds me: I'd REALLY like putting some of those SPECIAL locations into PotC. Mayan temple = niiice, for example!
City of Abandoned Ships would have to stand in for Shipwreck Cove. But oh well, wishful thinking again.

It would probably be easier to add those than the aforementioned Nevis changes, I reckon, since they don't have forts and such to worry about.
We'd just need to think of where to put them. Not right now of course, but at some point, maybe.

I'm hoping to get the remaining Beta 2.5-based polishing done soon so that I can focus for a while on that Beta 3 code.
We need those Quest Cases confirmed and too-strong soldiers reconsidered and adjusted for people to "fully" be able to enjoy the game, don't you think?

Good point, we can't let these things get in the way of quests or general enjoyment.

 

[agentad]

Yes. That's the only way we can be assured of shutting up the whiners (unless we get a NEW wave of complaints saying "what happened to the sidestep?" ).

yes put sidestep with free camera or cheat mode so only men who want it will allow it good idea

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Bartolomeu reminds us that he's got Vera Cruz, Mexico already in use in one of his stories.
And Jack Rackham was wondering if adding any part of Florida would be a possibility at all.
What do you think?

Is it possible to rescale that Main Land a fair bit? Having Cuba level with Nicaragua is a bit odd. Should be much further North.
I fear things might get a bit "cramped" though, unless we downsize the islands or upscale the worldmap.

yes put sidestep with free camera or cheat mode so only men who want it will allow it good idea

Putting it in with the cheatmode isn't a bad idea! It's a bit of a cheat anyway and people should pretty much know where to find that toggle.

It won't have the extra models on it, but I'll keep those models in the Maya file for future use.


It would probably be easier to add those than the aforementioned Nevis changes, I reckon, since they don't have forts and such to worry about.
We'd just need to think of where to put them. Not right now of course, but at some point, maybe.

Seconded and seconded.

Good point, we can't let these things get in the way of quests or general enjoyment.

I think I'll at least wait for you to get further with your worldmap before trying to do anything else with this then.
And in the meantime, I'll try to sort out the Beta 2.5 gameplay issues and continue merging the Beta 3 code. And play a bit too!

 

[agentad]

It's a bit of a cheat anyway and people should pretty much know where to find that toggle.

agreed

 

[Pieter Boelen]

EDIT: BTW, now that you're savvy with viewing islands in GM Viewer, could you have another look for some candidates for Petit Tabac and Isla Mona? I'm still finishing off coordinate placement on the world map right now.

Let's see then:

Terks has no towns, but is already used as Isla de Muerte in PotC

Bermudes has several islands in its model; could that potentially be cut up so we're left with just one small one?
That rocky stuff in the approach to the port there seems interesting to me too, but we don't really want a port, do we?

Dominica also has several islands and NO towns.

Cayman is a single island without any towns and what looks like two beaches.

Technically, I think we don't even need Petit Tabac anymore. DirectSail does work without it these days.
It is just a leftover from the old "island cell" navigation method that I don't think we need anymore.
There IS no island in the middle of the Caribbean. We changed the name to Petit Tabac because that is where part of the PotC films were shot.
But the real Petit Tabac would be a tiny spit of land just north of Grenada. Perhaps we could move it there?
It IS used as the marooning island for Jack Sparrow and the Silver Train sidequest by bartolomeu.

And NOW I know what was messing me up: Some of those island models ARE too big for Shift to speed things up to a reasonable level.

 

[agentad]

There IS no island in the middle of the Caribbean. We changed the name to Petit Tabac because that is where part of the PotC films were shot.

i like these areas even when we cant go on the island because during travel on sea i use sometime petit tabac to loose some pursuier

 

[Armada]

Bartolomeu reminds us that he's got Vera Cruz, Mexico already in use in one of his stories.
And Jack Rackham was wondering if adding any part of Florida would be a possibility at all.
What do you think?

At the current scale, I don't think we could fit any more parts of the mainland onto the map.
If we can change the scale, though, I think it might be plausible, since we could shrink all the world map islands to gain space.
I just did a quick search and found the WDM_MAP_TO_SEA_SCALE value which is 60 for Open Sea and a strangely specific 19.607843 for the stock map. Could this be what we need?

Is it possible to rescale that Main Land a fair bit? Having Cuba level with Nicaragua is a bit odd. Should be much further North.

I'm just following the shape of the mainland used in CoAS, which was clearly modified to be more 'square' to fit the world map boundaries.
So I think the northernmost part of the land is supposed to belong to Mexico, with Belize just beneath it and Nicaragua further south.
As I said, if we can modify the scale of the world map, then we could probably have a better shaped mainland.

If we CAN do that, though, things will still look a bit odd, especially since Cuba looks undersized and some of the other islands are oversized.

Technically, I think we don't even need Petit Tabac anymore. DirectSail does work without it these days.
It is just a leftover from the old "island cell" navigation method that I don't think we need anymore.
There IS no island in the middle of the Caribbean. We changed the name to Petit Tabac because that is where part of the PotC films were shot.
But the real Petit Tabac would be a tiny spit of land just north of Grenada. Perhaps we could move it there?
It IS used as the marooning island for Jack Sparrow and the Silver Train sidequest by bartolomeu.

Surely we can keep it but move the code to Worldmap_init.c, since we'll have a physical version for once?
Anyway, if that's the purpose of Petit Tabac, to be the small island Jack is marooned on, then perhaps we could use an upscaled version of Bartolomeu's Isle location? With a few more palm trees, of course.
And looking at satellite images of Isla Mona, it looks pretty small and empty as well, so it might as well share the same model as Petit Tabac.

And NOW I know what was messing me up: Some of those island models ARE too big for Shift to speed things up to a reasonable level.

Yeah, that's quite annoying.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

At the current scale, I don't think we could fit any more parts of the mainland onto the map.
If we can change the scale, though, I think it might be plausible, since we could shrink all the world map islands to gain space.
I just did a quick search and found the WDM_MAP_TO_SEA_SCALE value which is 60 for Open Sea and a strangely specific 19.607843 for the stock map. Could this be what we need?

That is indeed the value that is used to set the islands further apart for DirectSail purposes. Not sure what effects it has on the worldmap.
I don't think it makes the ships any slower. And that 19.6thingeythingey value IS quite strange. NO clue why that value is there.

Surely we can keep it but move the code to Worldmap_init.c, since we'll have a physical version for once?

Can do.

Anyway, if that's the purpose of Petit Tabac, to be the small island Jack is marooned on, then perhaps we could use an upscaled version of Bartolomeu's Isle location? With a few more palm trees, of course.
And looking at satellite images of Isla Mona, it looks pretty small and empty as well, so it might as well share the same model as Petit Tabac.

The only problem with that is that for the Silver Train sidequests, there are all sorts of jungles and things on Petit Tabac.
Should that be moved to a different island, perhaps, so that we can keep Petit Tabac as tiny little bit of nowhere?
Perhaps the Cartagena coast has a shore locator as well and we could have the Silver Train treasure be there instead?
I'll ask Bartolomeu about it.

 

[Armada]

That is indeed the value that is used to set the islands further apart for DirectSail purposes. Not sure what effects it has on the worldmap.
I don't think it makes the ships any slower. And that 19.6thingeythingey value IS quite strange. NO clue why that value is there.

Hmm, I'm not sure if that would help much, then. What would really be nice is if there were something that sets the size of the actual map boundaries, but I haven't found any such values yet.

The only problem with that is that for the Silver Train sidequests, there are all sorts of jungles and things on Petit Tabac.
Should that be moved to a different island, perhaps, so that we can keep Petit Tabac as tiny little bit of nowhere?
Perhaps the Cartagena coast has a shore locator as well and we could have the Silver Train treasure be there instead?
I'll ask Bartolomeu about it.

Indeed if that quest relies on jungles quite a bit, it sounds as though Petit Tabac isn't the right place for it.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Hmm, I'm not sure if that would help much, then. What would really be nice is if there were something that sets the size of the actual map boundaries, but I haven't found any such values yet.

Maybe someone who plays with Open Sea Mod can tell us if worldmap travel is just about 3 times faster compared to without Open Sea Mod?
Anyway, if we have to compromise, so be it.

Indeed if that quest relies on jungles quite a bit, it sounds as though Petit Tabac isn't the right place for it.

Sent him a message; let's see what he says.

 

[Armada]

I've now got all the coordinates in place on the map, including position x, y, z, rx and rz, all the towns and shores, and all the ship positions.
I also added coordinates for Colombia and Cartagena, but no shore coordinates for it yet.
Petit Tabac and Isla Mona now also have their very own tiny island models on the map, which even look like small, sandy islands.
See this shot of Isla Mona with Hispaniola in the background.

Spoiler: Show image

So this means I'm pretty much ready to start moving the islands around, at last.
For now I won't try changing the scale of the map or islands; I'll just stick to the space available.